Open Metal Detector Project Charter

[kris]

Hey Carl why did you not show the QED you had to your masters at Whites looks like a double cross to some of us?

[PATCHES JUNIOR]

Hey Carl why did you not show the QED you had to your masters at Whites looks like a double cross to some of us?

kris, been wondering what happened to you. Have not heard much from ya. I guess duggy drafted you back into service again.

[Tinkerer]

Sid,

Sorry if I came across wrong... no one has crossed a line. Well, except Aziz. (Aziz, get a grip man, or we'll have to call the Men in White Coats.)

A lot of people have dreams of coming up with a killer metal detector and starting their own production. I'm arguing that the "start your own production" is a Big Mistake. Dave has sunk $1000's into it and 3 years later has nothing to show. He had a clear path to another way. Eric, on the other hand, struck a deal with White's and went on to work on other projects while cashing checks. I've been on both sides now, and that's the way to do it!

While we may all agree that one particular company is on a mission to own the (metal detecting) world, other companies will treat you fairly. I work for White's, we treat people well. I'm sure First Texas would, too. Probably Garrett & Tesoro. There are options. Trying to start up even a limited production will burn all your money, burn all your time, and suck all the fun out of the deal.

- Carl

I like the royalty idea.

What would be the criteria? How would one need to present a project? At what level of development?

How would one have to proceed to obtain information from a company, about what kind of detector they have an interest in?

All the major players do their market research and have a good idea of what the demand is. Even for them it is not easy to decide when to start on a new line of detectors.

For us hobbyists, who have much less market information available, this is much more difficult. We might spend years developing an excellent detector, only to find out that we have created a white elephant, that no major metal detector manufacturer or distributor has any interest in.

Tinkerer

[UrbanFox]

Hey Carl why did you not show the QED you had to your masters at Whites looks like a double cross to some of us?

Hey kris, I thought Carl made it adequately understandable that the mad rantings of certain people from the asylum you call Australian Electronic Gold Prospecting Forum made for a situation that Whites didn't want to know about or have their name associated with. So, perhaps Carl did show the QED to his masters and he was told politely to take it else where.

[Carl-NC]

Hey Carl why did you not show the QED you had to your masters at Whites looks like a double cross to some of us?

I've never had a QED.

[ivconic]

I think the China solution is the only way to beat greedlab

Even that will be tough!
If you try to contact some of those manufacturers in China; first thing they will ask you is: "What is the quantity we are talking about?"
So if you name any number bellow 1000, like 50 ... 100 : most probably they will not talk with you again.
Or they will qualify your offer with dozen impossible (not payable) conditions.
At the end of a day your business will fail because of various taxes, import/export&shipment costs etc...
If you want to make business there; you have to be very rich man and to be ready to invest huge money in something which is not so sure and secure, otherwise forget it!
Those companies which are already there; they installed own product quality control and invested indeed huge money in such production, also installed own business agents there.
"China business" is not cheap as we may think here or as it was just 10-15 years ago. New times came. And new rules.
They are serious and demanding. Only "large players" with deep pockets are welcome there.
"Small potato" businessman with just few kilos of euros is not interesting for them any more.
Cheers!

[PATCHES JUNIOR]

But Ivconic, if some did have a detector that was better than the rest they could build it one a month by hand. And after 12 or so units that proved to be the best they could easily find someone to mass produce them. That is if they had a patent on the design. Or sell the patent to a large company and be set for life if was good enough!

Or just keep their idea "QUIET" till it had proven itself to work as they say, then hire someone (patent lawyer)to look to see if their idea was novel. Usually someone else has already patented it. But I figure there are new areas waiting to be figured out. No one has found it yet on a homemade detector.

[PATCHES JUNIOR]

And remember "QUIET" is the best advice in my other post!!!!!

[Davor]

good one

[PATCHES JUNIOR]

good one

Sorry to make you giggle, but that is the way Capitalism works! Not Socialism.

[ivconic]

But Ivconic, if some did have a detector that was better than the rest they could build it one a month by hand. And after 12 or so units that proved to be the best they could easily find someone to mass produce them. That is if they had a patent on the design. Or sell the patent to a large company and be set for life if was good enough!

Or just keep their idea "QUIET" till it had proven itself to work as they say, then hire someone (patent lawyer)to look to see if their idea was novel. Usually someone else has already patented it. But I figure there are new areas waiting to be figured out. No one has found it yet on a homemade detector.

Yes, keep quiet and try to protect it as best as you could.
Processors are good for many reasons, but for me; main advantage is protection.
You may read here on forums many "advantages" of implementing processor in some md design.
Faster, cheaper, lower consumption, adc, dac.... "mac", "shatz", "klatz" ... you name it!
But if you ask me; all those "advantages" are advantages mostly on paper (simulator),
but on real field, under real searching conditions those do perform maybe just 5% better than fully analogue oldie.
Main advantage of processor implementing in md design is PROTECTION! Period.
So if you want to protect your intellectual work, new idea, whatever; solution is simple: try to implement processor in it and integrate it on as much as higher level you can in your design.
Other words; try to design circuitry which will depend most on processor and its functions.
Implement two or three processor instead only one! Make it complicated! Make it tough!
And voila; you will have pretty well protected own intellectual work.
No need for patenting, no need for such big fuzz, nothing.
Than you can freely make offers and proposals without fears that anybody will cheat and steal from you, sue you or something else.
Than you can make conditions and negotiate.
Also you can start smaller production and freely sell them by your own.
Sweet and "protected" money.
Cheers!

[UrbanFox]

Hey Carl why did you not show the QED you had to your masters at Whites looks like a double cross to some of us?

I've never had a QED.

So kris, where are you getting you info from? Did King Wally, aka Doug, put you up to coming over here to call Carl's ethics into question or did you make the decision to do it yourself? Either way, sleazebags, both of you!

Note people, kris is one of Duggie's little helpers these days as is Aziz.

[Jerry]

Yes, keep quiet and try to protect it as best as you could.
Processors are good for many reasons, but for me; main advantage is protection.
You may read here on forums many "advantages" of implementing processor in some md design.
Faster, cheaper, lower consumption, adc, dac.... "mac", "shatz", "klatz" ... you name it!
But if you ask me; all those "advantages" are advantages mostly on paper (simulator),
but on real field, under real searching conditions those do perform maybe just 5% better than fully analogue oldie.
Main advantage of processor implementing in md design is PROTECTION! Period.
So if you want to protect your intellectual work, new idea, whatever; solution is simple: try to implement processor in it and integrate it on as much as higher level you can in your design.
Other words; try to design circuitry which will depend most on processor and its functions.
Implement two or three processor instead only one! Make it complicated! Make it tough!
And voila; you will have pretty well protected own intellectual work.
No need for patenting, no need for such big fuzz, nothing.
Than you can freely make offers and proposals without fears that anybody will cheat and steal from you, sue you or something else.
Than you can make conditions and negotiate.
Also you can start smaller production and freely sell them by your own.
Sweet and "protected" money.
Cheers!

I agree completely. The best thing a small timer can do is take some measures to protect his software. That bought me a couple years worth of time in the mid 1990's on a control system that I built and wrote the software for. Since all of the hardware and the EPROM with the software on it are easy to duplicate, I chose to fix it so that each individual controller board had to be initialized by me. Every time the program initialized, it performed some math functions based on the numbers in four memory locations. If the result did not match, the program froze. Simple but effective.

I am sure that system could have been cracked but using an obscure language helped as well as the fact that I did not call attention to it by stepping on the cat's tail so to speak.

Anyway, it worked well enough so I got established and then sold the business.

Jerry

[Aziz]

Hi guys,

(first: I thought, I was banned. Obviously not.)

How about the metal detector kit solution? It doesn't make much work to the designer. And we all can smell solder fume.
*LOL*
Aziz

[sido]

Sorry if I came across wrong... no one has crossed a line. Well, except Aziz. (Aziz, get a grip man, or we'll have to call the Men in White Coats.)

A lot of people have dreams of coming up with a killer metal detector and starting their own production. I'm arguing that the "start your own production" is a Big Mistake. Dave has sunk $1000's into it and 3 years later has nothing to show. He had a clear path to another way. Eric, on the other hand, struck a deal with White's and went on to work on other projects while cashing checks. I've been on both sides now, and that's the way to do it!

While we may all agree that one particular company is on a mission to own the (metal detecting) world, other companies will treat you fairly. I work for White's, we treat people well. I'm sure First Texas would, too. Probably Garrett & Tesoro. There are options. Trying to start up even a limited production will burn all your money, burn all your time, and suck all the fun out of the deal.

- Carl

Hi Carl no worries. A topic of this nature arises from time to time and i gather its part of a forums inner cycle which goes through every so often and people do have the right to question its effectiveness and worthiness as such.

Good to here that Whites do not have the negative rational and culture way of thinking like ML seems to be of late. Also good to know that Eric is still being compensated for his IP in use today from what seams a reasonable and fair Company, such as the one you have interest in.

Sid