Open Metal Detector Project Charter

[chudster]

Sean,

Thanks for your post. In the UK system its not free but its 20 pounds to file a provisional which is pretty close to free and it can be done online. You do lose your priority date when you refile. Of course that is the official fee for filing and does not include any legal advice so its a DIY cost.

Assuming a good DIY job is done writing the patent then the big $$$ start coming should you want to take it to the next stage.

That's where strategy comes in and you can refile as you said up to a year later (losing your priority date) but there may also be other options.......

Looking forward to getting this conference call together to discuss more with like minded people.

Chudster

The BOTTOM LINE is this...

All BW has to do is IGNORE LameNib, do as I stated in my previous post and write them a polite letter stating that THEY have to prove infringement AND that they have suffered a loss of business as a result (ask to see the SPECIFIC accounting which CLEARLY shows this loss).

LambBie will spend so much time fabricating evidence that they will most likely give up. remember, THEY are the ones spending the $$$$ at this point to prove a LIE in a CIVIL COURT..

Now, look at that last statement...CIVIL, NOT CRIMINAL which means if BW chooses NOT to take part in what is a pathetic attempt to litigate competition out of existence by a FAILING company then NO ONE on earth can MAKE him comply. the burden of proof is THEIRS, NOT his.. he is INNOCENT until THEY can prove 100% beyond ALL reasonable doubt that he has infringed upon their patent (which is probably a rehash of someone else's anyhow knowing those involved).

What they are trying to do is scare him out of business or make him run to an expensive lawyer and deprive him of the funds he needs to get off the ground. LET THEM DO NEITHER. They are pathetic bullies who will soon be in court filing for bankruptcy if they carry on like this.

Put the boot on the other foot.. If this was Whites, they would be offering to HELP the guy by producing the machine under license. THAT is the difference and THAT is why I will ALWAYS buy Whites over poorly made Limeban rubbish ANYDAY!

Now I can TRULY say... BOYCOTT ML NOW....SPREAD THE WORD!!!

OR....

Even BETTER...

If EVERYONE on this forum contributes a fund to BW to help him get the design off the ground ( BW forms an LLC with ALL contributors listed as Directors) ML can't sue ALL of us if we got say 250 ppl, but we COULD fund a counter-sue motion citing their re-hash patents. We've got the evidence let's GET THEM ON THE RUN!!!! $100 per pop would make them spend 10 times that defending their patents as the USPO and others would go back and review them. ML would have to submit modified versions to cover themselves. This would cost MORE.

FYI Patent protection DOESN'T cost thousands, you can get it FREE..Here's how.... file in the UK under a provisional application and you are granted 364 days protection AUTOMATICALLY as "PATENT PENDING". TWO WEEKS BEFORE the expiry, you re-file a modified document with slightly different claims. BINGO another 364 days FREE protection..SWEET. If I can remember which form it is to use I will post here later.

How's THAT for dirty fighting ML? Pick a fight with my friends, you pick a fight with ME!

[WM6]

Now I can TRULY say... BOYCOTT ML NOW....SPREAD THE WORD!!!

!

I am with you Sean. Right approach.

Only, as far I know ML prefer pinky proclamations:

BOYCOTT ML NOW....SPREAD THE WORD!!!

[chudster]

The BOTTOM LINE is this...

All BW has to do is IGNORE LameNib, do as I stated in my previous post and write them a polite letter stating that THEY have to prove infringement AND that they have suffered a loss of business as a result (ask to see the SPECIFIC accounting which CLEARLY shows this loss).

LambBie will spend so much time fabricating evidence that they will most likely give up. remember, THEY are the ones spending the $$$$ at this point to prove a LIE in a CIVIL COURT..

Now, look at that last statement...CIVIL, NOT CRIMINAL which means if BW chooses NOT to take part in what is a pathetic attempt to litigate competition out of existence by a FAILING company then NO ONE on earth can MAKE him comply. the burden of proof is THEIRS, NOT his.. he is INNOCENT until THEY can prove 100% beyond ALL reasonable doubt that he has infringed upon their patent (which is probably a rehash of someone else's anyhow knowing those involved).

What they are trying to do is scare him out of business or make him run to an expensive lawyer and deprive him of the funds he needs to get off the ground. LET THEM DO NEITHER. They are pathetic bullies who will soon be in court filing for bankruptcy if they carry on like this.

Put the boot on the other foot.. If this was Whites, they would be offering to HELP the guy by producing the machine under license. THAT is the difference and THAT is why I will ALWAYS buy Whites over poorly made Limeban rubbish ANYDAY!

Sean,

I agree that much in your post is good advice but here the devil is in the detail and like you I am a little blind. It appears that a basis for the action is a granted patent in BW's name. If he does nothing he may get a default judgement that his patent is invalid. I am not sure if Minelab has claimed any damages but if so he could get a default judgement for damages if he does not defend.

In any case it appears that he has consented to disclose the innermost details of his detector and its development to Minelab. Whether that was based on good advice or not I cannot say. There are some that have not a great deal of sympathy for BW given the postings and actions on various forums that he and his associates have made apparently provoking Minelab.

There are two issues:
1) How to help BW.
2) How to set up things better to create an innovative environment for hobbyists, learning from the problems that you, BW and others have had with industry entanglement.

I am not sure without further details that I can help BW and I am not sure that a forum would be an appropriate place to discuss it anyway.

I thank you for your posts as it has stimulated good ideas for 2 which this thread was opened for.

Chudster

[WM6]

Well, this isn't true in the least. There is no cartel, no collusion, not even cooperation. Sounds like a Doug Conspiracy. How could XP or Blisstool or Nexus or Red Heat or half a dozen PI makers have arisen with this powerful cartel to crush them? No, the problem with the QED, and the resulting sledgehammer response, is all on the behavior of the people involved. They got what they were begging for, and they're surprised? Really?

- Carl

No doubt, that there was too much red words around ML/QED, as you say. But question is, why this happen from very start of QED project (look at mockery in old/first "QED" tread here started by BW).

Ivconic will not agree, but maybe the reason why XP etc. have been left alone is simply because they do not pose a market threat the the major detector player ML or the smaller players like Whites.

Seems the QED poses a huge enough threat to ML's market share of the gold detector market (and to smaller players like Whites too).

Now, as we can detect, present ML actions/goals are two-fold:

1. To kill of any chance of the QED ever being a marketable product

2. To acquire by the back door the patented IP of the detector and hoping to kill 2 birds with one stone by getting Moodz's work as well! Indicates Moodz will be next!

Why now, if we know that ML have ample opportunity to request that the QED patent be re-examined and to object to it on the basis that it contains ML prior art (patents) with a priority date before that of the QED patent?

Why have they not done so?

Why are they taking this legal action now when the QED is still purely experimental (ML side say that even non-existing), none have been sold and no one has gained any pecuniary or other benefits from testing it?

ML's actions are now under scrutiny and if they want to avoid some some issues that they would rather not be made public then they should gracefully withdraw their legal intimidation ... or .. if they believe the QED infringes any ML IP giving BW the opportunity of remedying the situation or at least offering him a fair and reasonable license to use their IP (something normal, if there is only commercial interest behind ML action).

If this matter is allowed to proceed and become a legal precedent then forget any open source detector projects no matter how you try and set them up!

Forget any new detectors or any real competition unless you have mega bucks to fight ML!

Any open source or other kind of detector project will inevitably be infiltrated by ML spies and ML will use your ideas for their own benefit!

Worse still, they will use the recently broken US patent system to patent others smart ideas by the use of smart patent lawyers and almost undecipherable open to wide interpretation, and complex and convoluted patents!

Then our open source project is dead because we too will suffer the same fate as this little bloke!

Is this really what anyone wants?

[PATCHES JUNIOR]

This is great thread! I hope BW takes your advice!

[chudster]

If this matter is allowed to proceed and become a legal precedent then forget any open source detector projects no matter how you try and set them up!

Forget any new detectors or any real competition unless you have mega bucks to fight ML!

Any open source or other kind of detector project will inevitably be infiltrated by ML spies and ML will use your ideas for their own benefit!

I do not believe this is correct. A little knowledge of the legal and patent system and BW situation and points on this thread points to good solutions.

Then our open source project is dead because we too will suffer the same fate as this little bloke!

Is this really what anyone wants?

Not at all..... and it does not have to be if you can piece together the info in this thread.

Provided enough people are interested then watch this space.....

[WM6]

This is great thread! I hope BW takes your advice!

You never know. I fear that there is no "win in win" for ML in this case. (Bad or good) reputation is a marketable commodity.

[detectormods]

Too many very smart people throw their very valuable I.P away to third parties!

My advice,

Divulge nothing.

Every time you post technical content third parties hoover it up.

I wonder where Minelab would be today if Dr Bruce Candy posted his research all over the web!

Be very careful of Wolves in Sheeps clothing.

[chudster]

Too many very smart people throw their very valuable I.P away to third parties!

My advice,

Divulge nothing.

Every time you post technical content third parties hoover it up.

I wonder where Minelab would be today if Dr Bruce Candy posted his research all over the web!

Be very careful of Wolves in Sheeps clothing.

That is for sure one approach. The issue is that there can be no collaboration and you should forget the forums altogether.

It depends why you are on the forum. I am expecting that the people are here because it is a complex area involving software, hardware, coils, science and physics yet they want to produce something that can perform like the best. If that is the case then I expect folks are interested as its not a one person effort. If they are interested in ego or just love a good argument with people then they can still get that and won't be interested in collaboration.

Chudster

[chudster]

OK. There has been chatter on this thread.

Time for action.

I plan to call a hobbyists conference call via skype in the near future. The topic will be how we can set up an ecosystem to collaborate better and produce outcomes. We will of course be using a forum as a coordinating part of that strategy.

If you want to be invited to the call and as a screener please PM me addressing the following criteria within the next week:

1) Are you a metal detector company hater?
2) Are you affiliated with a metal detector company by relationship, employment or any commercial tie?
3) Why would you like to be involved in hobbyist a development 'collective' and what do you expect out of it?
4) What is your real name, location and time constraints (in your local time) in terms of a conference call?
5) What specific skills do you think you can bring to a group and give a little background on yourself.
6) Would you be happy for me to share your answers with members who are on the call?
7) Anything else you would like to share on the topic?
Do you have skype or need help to set it up?

Other than as you may answer 6, any information will be confidential.

There are a lot of folks out there and I intend to limit it to a core of six or so.

If you do not end up being on the call then don't worry, it is not the intention to exclude people in future (that includes MD company people) but we want to get like minded people together to get the ball rolling.

Chudster

I had a private request for more info.

I was asked: What is the end game?

I thought that should be clear to everyone so I post my answer:

"Simple. To allow people to push the art of detector technology as a hobbyist without being taken to court and to have use of their and other hobbyist designs and intellectual output fairly and that could include to facilitate them to patent if they want to.

If you read my posts I am neither a QED supporter nor Minelab supporter. Unfortunately, despite the behaviour of the QED folks, Minelab has raised the bar in chasing a hobbyist and that needs some kind of response."

For the record, I am a complete outsider of the industry and my motivations? Just look at my very first post.

Of course I'll be providing the five or so other people with my answers to the above info.

Chudster

[ivconic]

"...Ivconic will not agree, but maybe the reason why XP etc. have been left alone is simply because they do not pose a market threat the the major detector player ML or the smaller players like Whites..."

I don't disagree, you are almost right.
XP so far is taking only hobby division and that's not a big threat for majors yet.
And if they (XP) are smart; they will continue to focus only on hobby division.

[Tec]

Perhaps, Minelab patents are mostly garbage that a five year old could have thought of.

I believe patents have their place.
However in the case of Minelab it is mostly marketing.

I have read some of their patent material, and my assessment is that it is formulas describing physical reality, The same as a patent for a gene sequence.

There may be a few basic novel concepts hidden under the garbage, but I can't see it.

I am guessing that it is a case of 5% technology, 80% marketing and 15% patent attorneys.
I believe that Patent attorneys make money from patents, 99% of which are worthless.

[Davor]

IMHO patents are a hamster wheel race altogether. Sure, there is a rat winning it, but the rat that takes it seriously and pours just about all efforts to it. Casual rat race makes you lose, so why playing at all.

IP is not just patents. Actually, a patent is the only way of IP "protection" that enables you to lose your IP unwillingly. Just about every patent can be busted by "virtue" of improving it. Improvements may be simple rewording the existing claims and planting a few jargon bombs here and there. Sound familiar?

I believe a hobbyist, if true to this categorisation, should concentrate his joy and drive to his hobby. Publishing his work publicly his IP is protected as copyright. Just like that. Someone else may use it as a prior art and patent his "improvements" on it, but can never take it away. You can use some platform as "Creative Commons" to facilitate free uses of your work.

I'm also quite happy with some level of anonymity on forums, groups, etc. I don't mind sharing my thoughts and designs with others, also being a part of some collaboration, as far as my comfort zone is respected.

I'm quite confident that we'll not lose our copyright privilege any time soon, because it would mean dismantling a whole education system first. MCSE and CCNA are examples of corporate bad jokes of education and hopefully they are contained to their ridiculous bubbles for the time being.

[chudster]

IMHO patents are a hamster wheel race altogether. Sure, there is a rat winning it, but the rat that takes it seriously and pours just about all efforts to it. Casual rat race makes you lose, so why playing at all.

IP is not just patents. Actually, a patent is the only way of IP "protection" that enables you to lose your IP unwillingly. Just about every patent can be busted by "virtue" of improving it. Improvements may be simple rewording the existing claims and planting a few jargon bombs here and there. Sound familiar?

I believe a hobbyist, if true to this categorisation, should concentrate his joy and drive to his hobby. Publishing his work publicly his IP is protected as copyright. Just like that. Someone else may use it as a prior art and patent his "improvements" on it, but can never take it away. You can use some platform as "Creative Commons" to facilitate free uses of your work.

I'm also quite happy with some level of anonymity on forums, groups, etc. I don't mind sharing my thoughts and designs with others, also being a part of some collaboration, as far as my comfort zone is respected.

I'm quite confident that we'll not lose our copyright privilege any time soon, because it would mean dismantling a whole education system first. MCSE and CCNA are examples of corporate bad jokes of education and hopefully they are contained to their ridiculous bubbles for the time being.

Davor,

Your position is fine but a refrain throughout the forums is that there is this flurry of activity but no usable detector emerges. Then when some folks start to get close to the market with a hobbyist designed product, however badly they have allegedly behaved, they get a law suit. We need to learn from this.

Publish and risk having skulduggery that might see you stopped from use your own idea? Stay quiet and don't disclose then no collaboration and no kudos for your achievement unless/ until it leaks out then skulduggery and being stopped from using your own idea. I'm looking for that third option that makes industry so happy that they don't sue you but lets us all collaborate to enjoy our own ideas. Wouldn't that be nice.

Chudster

[WM6]

Good point Davor.