Open Metal Detector Project Charter

[Tinkerer]

It would take me a whole day to look or download the video with my slow connection, so I have to miss out on that.
The comments say "how true" and I fully believe that.

There have been countless opportunities on this forum for community development of top of the line metal detectors. Why has it not happened?

An example is the TINKERERS TEM method. A truly new method, totally open source, no patent worries, no competition. It has been there for years, available to everybody, since Aziz has fully explained it and supplied LTSpice simulations of the method.

I have invited people to participate for years, again and again, but greed and self-illusion always get in the way.

Why don't we take this and develop a few complete detectors with it, say 5 models, each one designed for a specific task, like nugget hunting, coin shooting /relic, underwater detecting, very deep with very large coil and a pin-pointer to complete the set.

Then we let Silverdog sell the kits for them.

Carl has been incredibly nice allowing this kind of thing on his Forum, nobody else would do that.

As a group, with what we all would learn doing that, might get us to the knowledge level needed to design a detector that had a chance of being commercialized.

Tinkerer

[tjmlena]

I agree with Tinkerer, but ...

Why not all of us collaborate to develop the best metal detector on Geotech, TEM based, and OPEN SOURCE?
Because we want it all done AND most users have not sufficient knowledge, including me!

After all I'm willing to learn and test, to build pcb´s and to burn diodes. And the most important = Field Testing of prototypes in real field conditions.

AnyOne Is PointeD????

tj.malena

[Davor]

Actually I'm all for it. Of all detector flavours my gut feeling says TEM is the way to go. My focus is still mostly in VLF and I believe there are a few more things to contribute there. Lab requirements are also less demanding for VLF. But sentiments aside - TEM has more potential.

Yeah, I'd like to replicate TINKERERS TEM rig and contribute in it's refinement. I believe I could make a low noise frontend with less exotic choice of components to start with, and it just beautifully shows what happens when someone else finds a way - it is easy to refine something that already works. Moodz will spend his monthly food allowance to buy an ADC that really rocks, and a result will be a way to do it for peanuts. Frankly, I'd not be that easy on my wallet so I thank him for his courage.

[chudster]

It would take me a whole day to look or download the video with my slow connection, so I have to miss out on that.
The comments say "how true" and I fully believe that.

There have been countless opportunities on this forum for community development of top of the line metal detectors. Why has it not happened?

An example is the TINKERERS TEM method. A truly new method, totally open source, no patent worries, no competition. It has been there for years, available to everybody, since Aziz has fully explained it and supplied LTSpice simulations of the method.

I have invited people to participate for years, again and again, but greed and self-illusion always get in the way.

Why don't we take this and develop a few complete detectors with it, say 5 models, each one designed for a specific task, like nugget hunting, coin shooting /relic, underwater detecting, very deep with very large coil and a pin-pointer to complete the set.

Then we let Silverdog sell the kits for them.

Carl has been incredibly nice allowing this kind of thing on his Forum, nobody else would do that.

As a group, with what we all would learn doing that, might get us to the knowledge level needed to design a detector that had a chance of being commercialized.

Tinkerer

Tinkerer,

Thanks for your input. Those who have been open with me about the questions that I asked that I also shared in return know that I have some knowledge and experience to speak on this. I'll point out the following.

1) It is without doubt that there are commercial interests running around the forums looking for commercial opportunity.
2) There are small inventors running around the forums looking for commercial opportunity and maybe to come up with that 'killer design' that they can profit from
3) Some corporations have the capacity to throw legal and patent resources at the above and it appears that at least one has.
4) Taking BW predicament and thinking a little, it is possible that a half finished idea that is posted on a forum gets improved, patented and that the originator is prevented from using it or even taken to court. Why would someone share?
5) Trust is a fundamental issue because of the above. People are reluctant to say who they are and prefer anonymity. If we were a co-located hobbyist group who met every month in a local community hall and shared coffee and a chat then we would have better trust. I used to do this in computer clubs when I was a teenager. We would not only know each other's names but also what we had for breakfast that morning. We'd break off to a corner and go and work on our pet project. In reality though, we are diverse, culturally, spatially and temporally separated. Many have a preference for secrecy. We only have limited time for our hobby but the good news is that technologies are there to foster long distance collaboration including the forum. You have all bought from ebay right? You probably didn't know the seller so long distance trust is possible and ebay has solved that problem through systems. The same systems won't work for us but we need to better our trust systems.
6) Trust is low. Some people won't even say their names in private and commit to a conference call. I was told that as I was a relative newbie people would not trust me. My answer: I can't go do anything about that. People can google me and see I have no industry connection. Hopefully I won't have to post on the forum for five years before I can help solve this.
7) The desire for personal mastery and to contribute for a purpose is prevented and demotivated by the above. Many people are not here for the profit (see Davor and his 'slimy corporate' comment). They are not here for a regimented job- otherwise they would be sending their resume's to the detector companies. Nothing need change in terms of the fun and autonomy although if you want an end professional 'product' out of it some level of project professionalism is needed.

Now my first HUGE tip is that while what we are doing is at the edge of an emerging trend of new ways that people can network for collaboration ('open innovation' please google that term and read the Wikipedia article). My second HUGE tip is that we are not alone in our dilemma as collaborating hobbyists...... others have already solved part of the puzzle for us and done much of the work. I have made contact with some of them. What they don't have is an aggressive industry player (or players) bent on closed innovation and who probably also like the game the way it is- as someone put it hoovering up the stuff that leaks out. Their game is secrecy and I would argue ours is not and yet many are playing by their rules! Go figure! What is also apparent is that there would be industry players happy to work with us on open innovation.

What we don't have is trust and cohesion to pursue that sense of purpose. Maybe that goes to the nature of gold and not wanting to reveal the details of one's claim? in which case I am reminded of hdphilip's tag line.......

So in specific answer to your post. Yes I could foresee projects under a common banner and structures of trust that also leverage our diversity and gives us purpose beyond the commercial or profit motive and have the framework to protect that. I can foresee that industry players would take us seriously and have trouble to halt our designs and instead want to engage in open innovation much as computer companies like IBM have embraced linux. There will be other copmanies that will not just as some (like microsoft) haven't.

I'd love just to openly publish all this and have the discussion by thread but the hoovering companies, their lawyers and their other supporters just don't need to know some things right now..... I do promise that if we go forward there will be a flurry of business for the metal detector company lawyers and they will have to take us seriously just as microsoft takes linux seriously.

So this this forum is our community hall (and given our circumstances, it is a good one). Decide if you like the corner I am proposing and share a similar sense of purpose. If you do, make yourself a cup of coffee and come over for a chat and we'll figure out how to crack this nut.

If you decide not to get involved early, then when a framework and way of working comes forth (ie the next pot of coffee is ready) I hope you can still wander over and share a brew with us in our corner- although we may have well outgrown a corner by then!

Chudster

[sinclairuser]

hi all ive been too busy lately to visit here much but saw this thread and had a thought
why cant we choose say tinkerers new method then collectively club together as geotech and apply for patents in the name of tinkerer if we had a project here patented to us that could be the best we could hope for
the thing about patents is even if you "license" someone to make them other parties cant just copy the item comercially
to clarify if i invent a brand new method of md type and i then patent it if i recieve a patent i can allow whoever i like to produce it even for free if thats my choice and thats my idea
we collectively patent "our" idea then develop it here open source this gives us another tool too if a chip is used we can control the software
thats about all the protection we can give our project any thing more and it becomes closed development
thanks ally x

[Tinkerer]

Lots of good talk, I don't even know where to start answering on all that. So I will just throw out a few ideas to think about. Philosophy instead of physics.

Every problem is a source of opportunities.

Stay one step ahead of the competition.

If your opponent is stronger than you, direct his strength against himself.

Enigmatic? yes, it is supposed to set the little wheels in that box between the ears in motion. Ah, wait, this is old fashion, nowadays it is bipolar junctions.
Anyway, I let you guys think about that while I think up some answers.

Tinkerer

[WM6]

If your opponent is stronger than you, direct his strength against himself.

Probably better:

If your opponent is stronger than you, then join him.

[chudster]

Some great wisdom in the discussion.

Looking forward to consensus and enough people to embrace open innovation.

Enough said for now.

Chudster

[detectormods]

Some great wisdom in the discussion.

Looking forward to consensus and enough people to embrace open innovation.

Enough said for now.

Chudster

My advice,

If you have a really good innovative design or I.P that is ground breaking, do not give it away. Do not even hint at it as other researchers or companies will try to to work out what you have done, they will improve it and patent it.

Save your $$ and patent the innovation or invention. Watch out for technology investors, they are likely to take most of the pie and leave you with crumbs.

I learned my lesson in regards to posting technical information on the net... just do not do it. Most people who do not have a commercial background are clueless to the value of their I.P They give away hundreds of thousands of dollars just because they are in a hobby mindset. Some of the largest companies started in the garage and grew into multi million dollar organizations. Do not sell yourself short and give things away out of your own ignorance.

I have seen plenty of I.P posted over the years that was refined and is now being used commercially, and the guy who posted it in the first place never receives a cent.

If you do not have a patent then you have NO protection if some one uses your design or I.P in there products.

Get the best Patent advice that you can afford, also find a attorney skilled in the relevant art.

[Davor]

I strongly oppose this way of thinking. You as a person with knowledge on some solution have one, and only one advantage against the rest of the world: time. If you use your time advantage to set up production and churn up some $$ in a process, fine. If not, you'll not see a single ¢ no matter what. Patents? The best way to lose your time advantage and most probably sanity as well. Royal tedious waste of time. Patents make sense only in case you have big money to defend your puny little patent in court, and be sure that no one will buy it or pay any royalty unless you force it in court.

Shortly, encouraging people to patent their ideas is the best way to ruin them in every possible way, and lose time, money, and worst of all - motivation.

I can see one and only one use for a patent: some incredibly stupid educational systems (including the one in my country) will grant you a professorship if you have a patent filled in your name. Any patent. (as if they care)

Buying time prior to setting up production? Just shut up and work on your production. The stupidest thing to do in this stage is compiling a patent.

[chudster]

Detectormods says Patent everything try to get into the market but don't take money from investors because they will take advantage of you. My addition: BTW watch out that when your patent is granted an industry player does not take you to court.

Davor, Don't patent because it will sap your money and energy. Go fast to market instead. But to do that (unless you are Carl and can design a commercial detector yourself with closed eyes) you need to disclose to others to get help but then they modify and patent or it will be years. My addition: But watch out because if you've also used the patents of others an industry player will take you to court to prevent your entry. Don't expect financial backing. Business people will look at this industry, see patent litigious players and ask where are your patents for your unique advantage? Remember too you need to build a distribution chain and don't expect all the dealers to suddenly support you.

So for those with a plastic mind to take the correct advice of both gentlemen the solution is obvious.

1) Patent without patenting.
2) Enter the market fast without entering the market.
3) Collaborate for speed.

When we've done that we'll be happy and successful.

So who is up for that solution?

Chudster

[sido]

If anyone is willing to post here on the Forum for all to see, then it should be of no concern to whomever sees the posts.

Do what you feel comfortable with, thats all.

Sid

[sido]

Totally agree with Davor......quoted below:

"Buying time prior to setting up production? Just shut up and work on your production"

or in the forums interest and all involved, work towards a working product, tested in the field and confirmed. Maybe a time comes when one just keeps his ideas to himself. The limitations or set backs of late has put a sour note, but should not be a negative and deterring factor in pursuing your main goal or interest.

Sid

[Tinkerer]

I strongly oppose this way of thinking. You as a person with knowledge on some solution have one, and only one advantage against the rest of the world: time. If you use your time advantage to set up production and churn up some $$ in a process, fine. If not, you'll not see a single ¢ no matter what. Patents? The best way to lose your time advantage and most probably sanity as well. Royal tedious waste of time. Patents make sense only in case you have big money to defend your puny little patent in court, and be sure that no one will buy it or pay any royalty unless you force it in court.

Shortly, encouraging people to patent their ideas is the best way to ruin them in every possible way, and lose time, money, and worst of all - motivation.

I can see one and only one use for a patent: some incredibly stupid educational systems (including the one in my country) will grant you a professorship if you have a patent filled in your name. Any patent. (as if they care)

Buying time prior to setting up production? Just shut up and work on your production. The stupidest thing to do in this stage is compiling a patent.

Good points.

Tinkerer

[Tinkerer]

Detectormods says Patent everything try to get into the market but don't take money from investors because they will take advantage of you. My addition: BTW watch out that when your patent is granted an industry player does not take you to court.

Davor, Don't patent because it will sap your money and energy. Go fast to market instead. But to do that (unless you are Carl and can design a commercial detector yourself with closed eyes) you need to disclose to others to get help but then they modify and patent or it will be years. My addition: But watch out because if you've also used the patents of others an industry player will take you to court to prevent your entry. Don't expect financial backing. Business people will look at this industry, see patent litigious players and ask where are your patents for your unique advantage? Remember too you need to build a distribution chain and don't expect all the dealers to suddenly support you.

So for those with a plastic mind to take the correct advice of both gentlemen the solution is obvious.

1) Patent without patenting.
2) Enter the market fast without entering the market.
3) Collaborate for speed.

When we've done that we'll be happy and successful.

So who is up for that solution?

Chudster

Protect without patenting, can it be done?

From tested product to market is a steep, rocky road, unless the product has been designed for a very specific market. To design for a specific market means first the market research has to be done.

Designing, building, testing and selling the product is a lot of work. Well established businesses, spend many hundreds of thousands of dollars to develop a new product and bring to the market. It would be foolish self-illusion for a single person to want to do that.

Metal detectors, like any modern technology is changing fast. The only way to compete is to stay one step ahead.

Tinkerer