How do the X-Terra MDs change frequency with coil?

[kt315]

It could be worse, until fairly recently, you would have also needed a plug-in electronics module for each frequency, too, with things like the amplifiers, and oscillator parts, maybe the demodulators, too.

sorry but seems you are OUT from matter (((( XT uses some kinda codec micros. NOTHING what you write above from. please - be without insinuations and a fantasy.

[Carl-NC]

I really feel that we may begin to see home made metal detectors on par with the big boys and the only reason we haven't yet is because the average MD'ist isn't also into computers and electronics.

I have seen PIC and ATMEL (Arduino) based PI metal detectors and even VLF ones. Basically, I feel, we need an Open Hardware MD and if that ever comes to be the big boys will stand up and take notice. I mean I know how much a F2 costs to make based on the parts count and it isn't all that much. Maybe 20 dollars tops unless they are buying in really large quantities which I doubt since this is still a niche market (the reason they can get away with charging so much for them).

Based on running Geotech for 13-14 years now, I believe it's possible to develop an open source homebrew that has the capability of a decent mid-range detector like the Tejon or MXT. Probably not enough for the Big Boys to take notice. The problem is that any decent design is not a 1-man project, and getting a group of disparate tinkerers to team up is like herding cats. I've tried it.

Be careful about using a raw component cost as the basis for costing a completed unit. A typical detector PCB might have a component cost of, say, $30 but this is a small portion of the overall cost. Factor in labor & overhead (are warranty repairs free?), plus engineering and tooling (try getting a tooling quote on the XTerra plastic). This is an incredibly small market and cannot be compared with high-volume electronics. There is little economy of scale.

Carl, where you find smart loops? you could be choice a frequency on LCD menu. but this way is intentionally excluded by ML. what did ML... you have to buy THREE coil because there are THREE frequencies while all coils are same inside - SIC!. all difference of the coils is only the difference of program code inside the coil's micros only saying to the housing brain on what frequency it has to be return. you have to pay three times MORE buying three coils than you could pay for one. GREEDY... the cash Predator!

I'm not claiming that ML's VFlex is all that useful or necessary... I think the only thing they do is optimize the TX/RX coil windings for each frequency, which isn't even needed as proven with their Eureka. Everything is still run in normal analog. What I am saying is that ML has every right to lock out 3rd party coils, the same way HP embeds ID chips in their inkjet cartridges to prevent me from buying cheaper ink. Yes, it is tactic to make more money, and that is how capitalism works. I will repeat again: If you don't like Minelab, don't buy Minelab. That is also how capitalism works.

Yeah, I really wish we could make our own coils because I was looking at the third party NEF coils (not licensed) and saw the cost of them and at 200-300 US dollars they really want them more than I do.

This is the reality for ultra-low volume custom-made accessories. I challenge anyone to produce and sell "cheap" detector coils... you'll quickly get tired of working for free.

- Carl

[DarkPrognosis]

I know what all of it costs (production costs is a small portion) and I know for a fact they are way over charging. If anyone disagrees with that they have their head in the sand, are naive, or has a vested interest in deception.

Fact be fact a modern MD that you see for 1900 dollars shouldn't cost more than about 500 dollars but greed and pricing what the market will bear is heavy in the MD market.

[Carl-NC]

I know what all of it costs (production costs is a small portion) and I know for a fact they are way over charging. If anyone disagrees with that they have their head in the sand, are naive, or has a vested interest in deception.

Fact be fact a modern MD that you see for 1900 dollars shouldn't cost more than about 500 dollars but greed and pricing what the market will bear is heavy in the MD market.

As I work for one of the manufacturers, I can say with extreme confidence that if we cut our prices in half our business simply would not be sustainable. There is no greed here, and no one is getting filthy rich. You should visit one of the manufacturers who still do most of their production in-house to see what's involved.

- Carl

[Skippy]

Thank you KT, I am familiar with the circuit diagram, there's no need to be rude. If the Russian reverse engineering is correct, then the search-coils have different inductances and parallel tuning capacitors for different frequencies. So there is more to it than simply a differently programmed microcontroller. I'm not a fan of Minelab's way of locking in their search-coils, and don't own any Minelab product. However there are some reasons why an interchangeable search-coil of different frequency makes sense. It is less expensive than buying another complete machine at a second frequency, for example.

[DarkPrognosis]

Thank you KT, I am familiar with the circuit diagram, there's no need to be rude. If the Russian reverse engineering is correct, then the search-coils have different inductances and parallel tuning capacitors for different frequencies. So there is more to it than simply a differently programmed microcontroller. I'm not a fan of Minelab's way of locking in their search-coils, and don't own any Minelab product. However there are some reasons why an interchangeable search-coil of different frequency makes sense. It is less expensive than buying another complete machine at a second frequency, for example.

Simple enough to change the coil and tune in the frequency via the software/firmware side. All Minelab did was lock people into spending more with a gimmick because they knew if they had the ability to dial in/punch in the frequency via the mainboard people could do all sorts of things.

Carl: If you can't cut your prices in half I can tell you that you have too much excess fat in your business OR you are selling them already for half (or 3/4) to the dealers. Bad both ways and this tells me why, and I have been asking people, the MD market seems to have stagnated. It has stagnated because if you wanted to make a super fancy MD the darn thing would cost the price of a car so most people wouldn't/couldn't afford it. Seems to me the MD businesses have painted themselves into a veritable corner.

[kt315]

Thank you KT, I am familiar with the circuit diagram, there's no need to be rude.

sorry, Skippy, that I repeat a schematic you have. if you have a collection of ML's schematics please can you send them me?
I would like to fill up my collections by collections of counterparts.

Yours

[Skippy]

The only circuit information I have on these XTerra's is the phazitron page, which I assume you are familiar with, but Mr DarkPrognosis may find interesting. Google translate works reasonably well on this article. http://www.phazitron.com/repair/xterra.html.
@DarkPrognosis: To make your own coil for the XTerra's it would seem you need a donor coil of the frequency you wish to use, because of the security/ID chip. Your new coil can be smaller or larger than the donor, you just need to maintain the same L and R values as the original.

[Carl-NC]

Simple enough to change the coil and tune in the frequency via the software/firmware side. All Minelab did was lock people into spending more with a gimmick because they knew if they had the ability to dial in/punch in the frequency via the mainboard people could do all sorts of things.

Minelab already has a detector where you can choose 1-of-3 frequencies via the front panel, and they all use the same coil... called the Eureka.

Carl: If you can't cut your prices in half I can tell you that you have too much excess fat in your business OR you are selling them already for half (or 3/4) to the dealers. Bad both ways and this tells me why, and I have been asking people, the MD market seems to have stagnated. It has stagnated because if you wanted to make a super fancy MD the darn thing would cost the price of a car so most people wouldn't/couldn't afford it. Seems to me the MD businesses have painted themselves into a veritable corner.

The excess fat in our business is paying American wages for American labor instead of paying Chinese wages for Chinese labor. Yes, we could slash prices by sending everything overseas. We choose not to do that, as have most of our competitors. Having worked for companies that shipped all production overseas, I view it as a Positive Thing. And yes, sadly, our dealers insist on being able to make money selling our products.

So, what would a SuperFancy MD look like? I ask, because I'd like to make one.

[kt315]

I have got out the board from dissolvent two times but I see there are still the remains of epoxy... have to keep still again.

[ivconic]

...Yes, we could slash prices by sending everything overseas. We choose not to do that, as have most of our competitors. Having worked for companies that shipped all production overseas, I view it as a Positive Thing. And yes, sadly, our dealers insist on being able to make money selling our products.
So, what would a SuperFancy MD look like? I ask, because I'd like to make one.

I regret the day when Fisher took a part and there are no more 12xx and CZxx series to be produced and sold worldwide, simply because
i take those as my most favorite, respecting high quality made and performances i like to see on my fields.
I also regret all the missed chances to keep some of those i had for some time and than sold them, thinking that Fisher will last forever and i would always have new machine from them to buy.
Nothing from modern "Fishers" reminds me on those i am talking about. Maybe because those are not Fishers any more?
I think your quotes are pretty connected to what i just wrote here. No insinuations, i am not saying those are made overseas, yet i don't recognize them any more.
Why Fisher (hobby division) busted? Maybe exactly because of the reasons you are talking about?
Bottom line is; yes you are right, absolutely, world is changing and nothing is as it was before. Pity.
...
btw
"...the same way HP embeds ID chips in their inkjet cartridges to prevent me from buying cheaper ink..."

I think hackers already founded a solution for that. Don't tell me that you are so squeamish to look for it on the internet!?
If you can save some of your hard earned money; than why not saving it?

P.S.
"SuperFancy MD" is 890gr weight, fully wireless, black case, monochromatic LCD and answers to the name: "D..s" !

C h e e r s !!!

[kt315]

fisher is only a trade mark bought by first texas. no more fisher lab, no some fisher you did see early.