PCB Layout Programs

[porkluvr]

Once again, Der Fisherman seems to think that there is something inherently wrong with either my machine (from the other day), or the way I performed the Eagle v6 upgrade. Well, it's not like you have a lot of room to talk - being as how you are sitting on v5.4. You have not a clue of what I've gone through upgrading to v6. Why are you defending Cadsoft? Pure ethnocentrism?

You asked before - here it is: I'm running Winxp on an Athelon XP2500+ @1.8GHz with 2GB ram. Definitely not cutting edge, but not a total dinosaur.

Maybe I should have removed my v5 installation completely just so that v6 could not tamper with those files? Well, maybe I should stay at home and never go out so that I won't get hit by an out-of-control vehicle.
Unreasonable.

I wanted to be able to continue to use Eagle v5 as I was test driving v6 and I would like to make the point that I took every precaution I knew of to prevent v6 from accessing my v5 files, short of removing the v5 installation.

I suffered no irreparable damage because I did have back-ups, but I believe I exercised due diligence in configuring my machine correctly, yet v6 somehow ignored my configuration requests and acted like it was expected to access my v5 files. At the same time v6, ignored the v6 files that were explicitly specified in my Options Directories Control Panel entries. (That is another bug... Cadsoft has known about it for years and to date Cadsoft has not fixed it. Eagle may ignore your Options Directories entries and instead operate on information contained in unspecified locations.) In v511 release notes they make mention of a newly implemented -U option, (to allow different versions to work together without interacting) but Cadsoft does not explain how to use it (not that I have found, anyway). Even after I learned how to use the -U configuration option I had to repeatedly weed out remnants of the old behavior before the v5 and v6 would work side-by-side without interaction. Then I got to see the other bugs at work.

Only with this major upgrade has the aforementioned bug become apparent because of people trying to have v5 and v6 run side-by-side and still running into unexpected trouble. Before, we expected trouble but now we shouldn't have to. (If I don't speak for you the reader, then I'm speaking for myself.)

I will let anybody interested do the necessary homework and make required configuration changes and then try to run Eagle 5xx and Eagle 6xx side-by-side. See for yourself. Enjoy!

Cadsoft has handled this latest software rollout very poorly imho, not vetting the product sufficiently to weed out bugs that would have become apparent very quickly, except that they evidently weren't looking. They rely too heavily on their Beta Test group who are evidently a bunch of shmoozers. In all fairness, there was a short list of bugs submitted in the beta test forum.

Did somebody tell me to relax? Oh, right. These are the good guys.

-----------------------------------------------------
Fisherman, if this latest major upgrade rollout proceeds like the last one, you will no longer be able to purchase or download v5xx from Cadsoft. I do like some of the new features of v6, like being able to connect one device pin to multiple PCB pads, and they now allow you to copy a component and paste it into another window running in a different instance of Eagle (but that does change the way that the Cut command works). Ability to create arbitrarily shaped pads and SMDs. Text alignments have more options, increased internal resolution, and etc.

Many of the changes have to do with the User Language Program or other more advanced features that are beyond my skill. And Eagle still will not let you have multi-line text, something I would really like to see.

END RANT

[der_fisherman]

Answer to Porkluvr

Dear Porkluvr,

you have completely misunderstood my last post. You should read it again, slowly......

Once again, Der Fisherman seems to think that there is something inherently wrong with either my machine (from the other day), or the way I performed the Eagle v6 upgrade. Well, it's not like you have a lot of room to talk - being as how you are sitting on v5.4. You have not a clue of what I've gone through upgrading to v6. Why are you defending Cadsoft? Pure ethnocentrism?

I never mentioned in my last post as to how you may have performed the upgrade, though it is of course possible that something there went wrong.....in fact I don't believe I ever mentioned it...As you took a long time to mention which OS you had till very recently.....and I only use the Windows version personally. I did mention drivers.....

You asked before - here it is: I'm running Winxp on an Athelon XP2500+ @1.8GHz with 2GB ram. Definitely not cutting edge, but not a total dinosaur.

I never asked in my last post what OS you were using, that was several posts ago, now you tell us!!!.....your PC is not a total dinosaur but close. Did you look at possible Video card driver updates as I mentioned? Though all drivers should be properly checked, you never mentioned anything about that ever....till now.

Maybe I should have removed my v5 installation completely just so that v6 could not tamper with those files? Well, maybe I should stay at home and never go out so that I won't get hit by an out-of-control vehicle.
Unreasonable.

I never ever said that, all I said was if you placed your files (not to remove the older version, I meant your personally designed files - schematics and PCBs etc) on CD or DVD, V6.xx could not "get at them" and change them to V6.xx versions unless you specifically allowed it to as once written on optical, they cannot be changed, only erased by a writer with the right software!!! Eagle cannot do that.

I wanted to be able to continue to use Eagle v5 as I was test driving v6 and I would like to make the point that I took every precaution I knew of to prevent v6 from accessing my v5 files, short of removing the v5 installation.

Commendable and normal, but you never mentioned this before and therefore neither did I.

I suffered no irreparable damage because I did have back-ups, but I believe I exercised due diligence in configuring my machine correctly, yet v6 somehow ignored my configuration requests and acted like it was expected to access my v5 files. At the same time v6, ignored the v6 files that were explicitly specified in my Options Directories Control Panel entries. (That is another bug... Cadsoft has known about it for years and to date Cadsoft has not fixed it. Eagle may ignore your Options Directories entries and instead operate on information contained in unspecified locations.) In v511 release notes they make mention of a newly implemented -U option, (to allow different versions to work together without interacting) but Cadsoft does not explain how to use it (not that I have found, anyway). Even after I learned how to use the -U configuration option I had to repeatedly weed out remnants of the old behavior before the v5 and v6 would work side-by-side without interaction. Then I got to see the other bugs at work.

It is of course possible that due to registry changes with installing V6, that V5 entries could have been damaged, or even V6 entries were not made because a V5 entry was already installed. I am not a registry expert but that is certainly possible and it can give strange effects.....
Again you never mentioned that you had backups, only that it was a fight to stop V6 changing V5 files......so just inform CADSoft how it doesn't work.....I never for example use a new version of Windows till its at least 2 years old, I treat software updates with the same carefulness, its often a great idea......let someone else fix the bugs if you do not want to.....did your V5 not do everything you needed? Would you have stayed with V5 if V6 never had appeared? Of course.

Only with this major upgrade has the aforementioned bug become apparent because of people trying to have v5 and v6 run side-by-side and still running into unexpected trouble. Before, we expected trouble but now we shouldn't have to. (If I don't speak for you the reader, then I'm speaking for myself.)

I have no problems with that for you, but I would never do that.

I will let anybody interested do the necessary homework and make required configuration changes and then try to run Eagle 5xx and Eagle 6xx side-by-side. See for yourself. Enjoy!

I have no problems with that either, but I would never do it personally, I consider that asking for trouble, I try to play safe.

Cadsoft has handled this latest software rollout very poorly imho, not vetting the product sufficiently to weed out bugs that would have become apparent very quickly, except that they evidently weren't looking. They rely too heavily on their Beta Test group who are evidently a bunch of shmoozers. In all fairness, there was a short list of bugs submitted in the beta test forum.
Did somebody tell me to relax? Oh, right. These are the good guys.

I have no problems with that either....many people accept that when software is very new, problems are to be expected, as I mentioned before, even Bill Gates needs time to make things work as they should!! Give CADSoft time to do that or switch back to V5, or to something better, but its no time to be complaining, especially when using the free version!!! Nobody is forcing you to use ANY CADSoft software.....its your choice.

Fisherman, if this latest major upgrade rollout proceeds like the last one, you will no longer be able to purchase or download v5xx from Cadsoft. I do like some of the new features of v6, like being able to connect one device pin to multiple PCB pads, and they now allow you to copy a component and paste it into another window running in a different instance of Eagle (but that does change the way that the Cut command works). Ability to create arbitrarily shaped pads and SMDs. Text alignments have more options, increased internal resolution, and etc.
Many of the changes have to do with the User Language Program or other more advanced features that are beyond my skill. And Eagle still will not let you have multi-line text, something I would really like to see.END RANT

I would hope that someone has mentioned this to them already......but as I have never needed V6 personally, as my PCBs are quite small and relatively simple, the reason that I stayed with 5.40 for example and that I did say before.....
I did actually mention that I did NOT know if a version of 5.xx was still available for download. You kept yours (I do the same, I still have 2.50 for example that runs on a DOS machine!!!), so you can degrade anytime you wish......if you get really fed up with 6.xx.....
Finally, please read my last post carefully through, all of your complains and rants are completely unjustified.
I have used Eagle since 2.50 and I am probably just used to it more than most, it has always had properties far in advance of my personal needs and has not given me problems since they fixed the editor for making your own components....But with the modern libraries, I never need to make anything anymore.
Its always been a good reliable friend to me.....I say as I see it, the same as you do, but don't be so aggressive to someone who never posted anything against you personally....or anyone else for that matter and don't read into a post anything more than is written there, it demonstrates a singular lack of manners and comprehension. We all try and be friendly and to work with each other here.....

Maybe you just had a bad day and I got both barrels for no reason at all, I'll put it down to that for now.....

Have a great day.

Regards

Andy

[WM6]

Andy, I can only repeat that Eagle is one of the worst (from user friendly & intuitive use point at first line) PCB designers I have tested (not only once - in rule with each new version) in last 10 years. Enough that I am angry with Eagle because of stole my time.

[porkluvr]

This is addressed to der Fisherman

Both barrels from me? Are you serious?

Let me tell you, I did address you at the start, and I gave you some information near the end of the post. But if you think my entire last post was aimed at you and it somehow offended you, you have some paranoid delusion. You dissected everything I wrote, to parse any insults that may have been implicit. Silly you.

All my rants weren't aimed at you. This thread is not about you.

Now, you have a great day yourself.

[der_fisherman]

This is addressed to der Fisherman

Both barrels from me? Are you serious?

Let me tell you, I did address you at the start, and I gave you some information near the end of the post. But if you think my entire last post was aimed at you and it somehow offended you, you have some paranoid delusion. You dissected everything I wrote, to parse any insults that may have been implicit. Silly you.

All my rants weren't aimed at you. This thread is not about you.

Now, you have a great day yourself.

As you used my name several times in your posting, of course I thought you were addressing me!!! I was amazed as you appeared to mix me up with someone else!
If you weren't addressing me and that was an apology, apology accepted.
Andy AKA Der Fisherman

[migusch]

ftp download of all Eagle versions since v4.0

[...] if this latest major upgrade rollout proceeds like the last one, you will no longer be able to purchase or download v5xx from Cadsoft. [...]

All versions of Eagle since v4.0 can be downloaded here: ftp://ftp.cadsoft.de/eagle/program/ regards, migusch

[selim]

http://www.abacom-online.de/demos/sprint-layout60(demo).exe

crack exe
10/23/2012
******************** (link to cracked software removed - copyright violation !!!!!)

user manual
http://forum.abacom-online.de/phpBB3...le.php?id=1670

[nelson]

Hi selim

Thanks a lot for excellent information you posted.

Regards

Nelson

[mykaitch]

Yeah me too. I thought Proteus was bad but Eagle ! What!!!To do anything you have to find and run ULP...Mad
Orcad was ok
Smartwork ws good in its day
Now use ProtelSE for many years. Point and click. Done
Designed my kitchen with Protel - all cabinets as components.
PCB layers for gas elecwater....
Installed kitchen from pcb plan Spot on to the mm !

[Pete the Builder]

After working for more than 20 years with Protel (DOS, then Windows, now DXP), it has spoiled me forever, although I actually use less than 15% of the tools. But that's enough. 16 layers out to 8 metres x 8 metres... I've even designed backlit streetsigns using single-sided PCB material! But I digress...

I've collaborated on a few open-source type projects using KiCad, and it seems to be a reasonable compromise IMHO. As long as we have an agreed-on method of exchanging component schematics and footprints, it sounds like the least-worst alternative. I'd be happy to go with that, though I'll need some time to come back up to speed.

I really have a hard time understanding Eagle's popularity. I spent over a month trying to get to grips with Eagle last year, and I just had to give up. It didn't feel as much like a learning curve as a learning trapeze over a minefield! Luckily, some of the Protel concepts helped me see what the developers were possibly trying to do, but at the end of the day, I could only assume that Eagle was designed and built by someone with absolutely zero skill in User Interface design. i used to design UIs, so I have a fair idea of the basics, but Cadsoft truly have not one clue. Perhaps they are trying to avoid patent infringements, but that didn't account for the experiences I had. Some keystrokes were identical, workflows seemed to be almost identical, and the biggest differences were the names they gave things. Very unfortunate, as I know how popular it is! I felt like it was the modern equivalent of the VHS format - except there's no Betamax in sight! Anyway...

May I suggest an alternative for those who would like to try the king and queen of designers, Protel? Microsoft have made Virtual PC 2004 available for free. It installs and runs perfectly on all modern Windows releases, including 64-bit versions. Now, it's not particularly cutting-edge, but it DOES run Protel 2.x beautifully, if you install a Windows 95, 98, or 2000 client. And to be brutally honest, even in that configuration, it still knocks the socks off Eagle - and everything else, too. The auto routing is a little slow, as you'd expect, but it works remarkably well. And hand-routing is a breeze, with rotate-as-you-place, side swapping, x- and y- mirroring (again, while placing), and it's not too difficult to create hugely sophisticated footprints AND schematic components, and typical stuff, like connectors, TQFN, QSOP, SOT, and even uMax packages take less than 10 minutes, all up.

If enough people are still interested in this thread, I'll post permanent free links to everything you'll need. The only downside is that once you've tried Protel, even from the early 90s, everything else feels like it's missing something...

I hope this is helpful!
-PtB

[mykaitch]

Yes, like you I have been at it a while (about 1986 on). Auto routers are fun to watch but I have always beleived in a layout that is aesthetically nice, and also with poss fault finding in mind (route busses together etc, so I never auto route. Have you ever seen an Eagle auto route...OMG!!! Totally with you about UIs! It was much more fun with reels of track tape and then you laid it down, took it up, for many happy days, until you got it right...

[Tinkerer]

For most tinkerers, the price is important.
How much does the Protel cost?

Designspark is totally free.

Tinkerer

[Tepco]

May I suggest an alternative for those who would like to try the king and queen of designers, Protel? Microsoft have made Virtual PC 2004 available for free. It installs and runs perfectly on all modern Windows releases, including 64-bit versions. Now, it's not particularly cutting-edge, but it DOES run Protel 2.x beautifully, if you install a Windows 95, 98, or 2000 client.

You don't need Virtual PC or any virtual box to run old Protel2.7.x, no need to install Protel at all. Simply copy already installed Protel folder from old machine, transfer to another one under any OS, add .DLL files if some missing (just copy into same folder) and that is it. Works perfectly on anything from XP to Win7, even Linux (under Wine, slower,but still useful), even from USB stick. I'm using it on Ubuntu, speed feels like Pentium1 machine, for what old Protel is designed for, at least i can turn on auto-pan.


I can just suggest to everyone to try it, simplest and best design software by far.


Not sure can i post working old Protel here. Separated, PCB package, libraries etc will fit 1MB “legal limit” by size, but not sure about copywrong violations. This is old and now unsupported software running on unsupported OS, cannot be licensed even if someone want to, older DOS version is freeware ...

[der_fisherman]

What we need to have is a PCB Design system that supports schematics as well as PCB design.
You did not say what part of Eagle you tried to use, did you start with a schematic or jump straight into board design?
I always work from a schematic. I change the schematic, the PCB is automatically updated.
You can with Eagle design with conventional components and with little effort, turn it into a SMD design, or even a mixed design.
I have used Eagle for over 25 years, though I use it rarely today, just for the very occasional project. I started with 2.xx if I remember correctly.....So I find it easier.....
The free version is big enough for most amateurs.....Therefore very low cost!!!
It supports many printers and plotters....
But using PCB programs that cannot use/work from a schematic is such a waste of time and energy, it must be a complete package to my mind.....totally integrated and cheap....editting a schematic and then the PCB to get it to the same level is OK if thats your ball game, but not for me personally....
Also Eagle can read various other schematics and board designs and use them.....though this feature I have never used myself....many professionals use it.
But each to what suits him.....nobody is forcing anyone to use what they don't like.
Eagle is another mindset, once you understand it (the tutorials are great), you are starting something really great......
Andy

[WM6]

Hi Tepco, I am trying advanced version 2.7.1. under Wine / Ubuntu 10.10.

Protel ask me for S/N and activation code at every start.

Checking auto-router using his own example. It can auto-route half of nets only: