PCB Layout Programs

[simonbaker]

To all over you who are talking about Schematics and PCB design, firstly many thanks for your input, that is exactly what we need.
Simon had a good idea that sadly Express appear to only ignore, as its an excellent idea.
What about if we make a list of what we want in a package? Then compare each package and see which one fits our needs best of all......sadly Eagle cannot import a picture, but that is about the only real limitation, otherwise it does just about anything you could possibly need - and a lot more!!

Regards

Andy

Eagle seems like popular standard (a good sign).

I just tried blindly starting it and tried to create a schematic and place a transistor. Nice "Drop" button sitting there -- maybe drops a part onto schematic?.... No, drops (deletes) parts from the master list...!!!???? I guess I'd better RTM, but that seems like a dangerous button. Probably a way to restore it, but I tried reinstalling. No luck, so quick read of the manual -- "Library|Use" command is used to load the library into the list... whew.

The manual doesn't seem to let me copy and paste text -- gives an error "Invalid Annotation Object" -- are they protecting the manual???

Anyway, on page 110 it says:

Set the Grid

The grid of schematic diagrams should always be 0.1 inch, i.e. 2.54 mm. Nets
and Symbol connection points (pins) must lie on this common grid.
Otherwise connections will not be created between nets and pins.


So why set the grid at all? Shouldn't it be hard-coded to .1 inch? Seems a strange statement.

I'm exploring and trying to see how to display the "grid". Haven't found it yet.

When drawing schematic wires, sometimes it is nice to have a "cross-hair" cursor that extends across the width and height of the window, so you can line up wires and connect them. I haven't found how to do that yet.

I also had difficulting making the wire-draw mode terminate a line! In ExpressSCH you right-click to finish a line before starting another disconnected one. Double-clicking seemed to do it in Eagle, but maybe there is a better way. Double-clicking is less controlled for placing the end-point of a wire. Probably a keyboard key is available to hold when clicking.

Also have difficulting stopping placing parts -- it's a mad part placer, what's the quickest way to get back to a selection cursor? In fact, which icon is a simple selection cursor? I really resent programs that deny you a simple selection cursor for exploring properties, moving objects, etc.

The actual look of the Eagle schematic drawing will take some getting used to -- some of the symbols and colors don't read easily for me. Probably can customize colors no doubt.

So lot's of learning curve for me with Eagle.

I previously looked at DesignSpark also, which was a wild ride and seemed more buggy than I expected. I think it is a young program. So far I wish ExpressSCH and ExpressPCB had a few more features (including import, export, and PCB checking. It does have schematic checking).

-SB

[Krzysztof]

Hi SB.
I'm using KiCad. It seems to have no objections as Eagle.
Freely I create a new library items.
Sometimes I use different parts of feet of space and not rebels.
Best regards Chris.

[simonbaker]

Hi SB.
I'm using KiCad. It seems to have no objections as Eagle.
Freely I create a new library items.
Sometimes I use different parts of feet of space and not rebels.
Best regards Chris.

Ok, thanks for the recommendation.

Does it have any auto-routing capabilities?

Regards,

-SB

[Krzysztof]

Hi Simon!
It has its own. Little bit weak. Available better outside.
I always do on their own.
Best regards Chris

[simonbaker]

Hi Simon!
It has its own. Little bit weak. Available better outside.
I always do on their own.
Best regards Chris

That's OK, ExpressPCB has no autorouting.

Autorouting is fun to try and see what it does; can always dream it may be helpful.

Regards,

-SB

[moodz]

That's OK, ExpressPCB has no autorouting.

Autorouting is fun to try and see what it does; can always dream it may be helpful.

Regards,

-SB

Eagle autorouting saves you bucket loads of time ... I nearly always hand adjust bits though. The reason to use autorouting ... cos it mostly applies the minimal design rule spacings etc between tracks ... I mainly adjust only the high current / voltage and noise sensitive routes. The "evaluation" copy of Eagle profesional is very nice ( aaaargh me hearties.)

[simonbaker]

Sounds like Eagle is worth investing some time into.

[porkluvr]

Eagle has some maddening 'features' or traits and some definite weaknesses, but I've been using it for so long that it would be hard to leave unless something much better came along that did not have an awkward learning curve, and/or have weak documentation.

On that note, I thought I would give Pulsonix a try. I went construct parts in the library and encountered the following text in the instruction manual... something to the effect:

"We don't need to tell you how to construct library components in this manual because Pulsonix has a fantastic library Parts Wizard that makes it very easy".

I swear to god, as best I can recall that is contextually accurate rehash of the Pulsonix Manual regarding constructing user library components. And by the way, their library editor is anything BUT foolproof.
I was appalled.

edit:
Eagle has a continuously 'on' Command Line. That precludes their allowing the convenience of having single-key commands (or single-key keyboard shortcuts). That, in conjunction with not having right-click context menus, does make for a somewhat klunky interface that is hard to get used to.

[porkluvr]

Eagle seems like popular standard (a good sign).

I just tried blindly starting it and tried to create a schematic and place a transistor. Nice "Drop" button sitting there -- maybe drops a part onto schematic?.... No, drops (deletes) parts from the master list...!!!????


-SB

Yes, that is a little trap they've set. Eagle has an annoying habit of incessantly asking: "Are you sure that you want to...", even for the most mundane tasks such as placing a ground symbol on a net stub, or starting to create a part within the library editor window. I find it ridiculous that Eagle will double-check before many, many trivial commands are implemented. But does Eagle double-check if you really want to drop a library from the "Add part" window? Oh, heck no. They'll let you mess that up with absolutely no warning. Oh, you thought "Drop [library]" meant Drop [part on schematic]?! That's too bad. (Do you want to talk about inconsistency?)

On top of that, Eagle sometimes drops libraries from your library list even without your input and you must implement the "use" command to get them back. Syntax can be either "use (library x)", or else "use *".

The manual doesn't seem to let me copy and paste text -- gives an error "Invalid Annotation Object" -- are they protecting the manual???

Anyway, on page 110 it says:

Set the Grid

The grid of schematic diagrams should always be 0.1 inch, i.e. 2.54 mm. Nets
and Symbol connection points (pins) must lie on this common grid.
Otherwise connections will not be created between nets and pins.


So why set the grid at all? Shouldn't it be hard-coded to .1 inch? Seems a strange statement.

-SB

The schematic Symbols that come with Eagle have all their pins set on 0.1" grid. There is no 'snap to' feature in the schematic editor so you must terminate a wire dead on against a pin at its exact coordinate or else there will be no connection.

You can display the grid by hitting the F6 key. That is a preset that can be changed under "Options Assign". You can also type "grid on <enter>" to display the grid. (The command line is always active... you'll either love it or you'll hate it. I think I hate it.)

Also have difficulting stopping placing parts -- it's a mad part placer, what's the quickest way to get back to a selection cursor? In fact, which icon is a simple selection cursor? I really resent programs that deny you a simple selection cursor for exploring properties, moving objects, etc.

-SB

Hit the Escape key twice or else hit the Stop icon. (There are several commands in Eagle that hitting the Escape key ad-infinitum only partially stops, and for those, using the Stop command is the only way of not having a "hot" command.) I was 'pooh pooed' when I brought that; what I think is a nasty feature, to the attention of Cadsoft.

To that point, Cadsoft does not have a "Bug Report" per-se. What they do have is a "Suggestions" forum. Hmmm, that could be because Eagle does not have bugs - although Cadsoft will admit that Eagle does have room for improvement. You see, they're almost perfect at Cadsoft, but not quite... or at least they like to think so.

Eagle is still a good value for the money but I think that they set the bar pretty low for performance in some areas, and then take the attitude that what they did is "good enough, there you go". (Take it, or leave it.)

[simonbaker]

Thanks porkluvr, that gives me another perspective and some useful tips to get me going.

Learning curve is the evil price we pay for the power the programs provide. I have "half-learned" so many programs but given up because the benefits finally didn't seem worth slogging the full mile. I like to really be impressed with a program if the learning curve is high. If Eagle autorouting is considered pretty good, then that might be the killer feature to keep me going.

In general I find I gravitate toward "simple-stupid" programs that I can learn quickly. I think ExpressSCH and ExpressPCB are fairly admirable there, although I'm sure I had some frustrations initially probably and I'm sure they are too limited for power users.

If they would just implement the "scalable image background" feature I hunger for, it would go a long way to make up for the lack of export/import capabilities. If you had an image to work over, it wouldn't take too long to redraw a layout I think.

I hope anyone will contribute more likes and dislikes about schematic/layout programs here and tips for using; very helpful for choosing a program to invest the time in.

-SB

[WM6]

I hope anyone will contribute more likes and dislikes about schematic/layout programs here and tips for using; very helpful for choosing a program to invest the time in.

-SB

"Design Spark" and "Dip Trace" are far better (more intuitive in use etc.) than Eagle, with equally fast or even faster and dependable auto-router.

The only drawback (as by most programs) are not really rich component library and you are often forced to design your components.

I tested in last years over 10 PCB layout free downloadable (full or demo) programs and prefer mentioned two over all others.

[porkluvr]

"Design Spark" and "Dip Trace" are far better (more intuitive in use etc.) than Eagle, with equally fast or even faster and dependable auto-router.

The only drawback (as by most programs) are not really rich component library and you are often forced to design your components.

I tested in last years over 10 PCB layout free downloadable (full or demo) programs and prefer mentioned two over all others.

I don't mind having to design my own components (so long as the procedure is not some poorly documented and arduous task) but what I really want and need is support for dual monitors.

Do either of these two have it?

edit:
I see that DipTrace has an auto-place feature (and also autorouter). Having autoplace could make the dual monitor support more of a convenience than a necessity.

Eagle has dual monitor support, but not auto-place.

[WM6]

Do either of these two have it?

.

I am now back from both to my old Circuit Wizard PRO 1.50, world most intuitive all in one program (simulation inclusive) graphically excellent. Sadly very poor component library, but all component needs can be replaced with universal components (without simulation of course in this case) cause further development was seems stopped couple years ago. And most important it run under Wine inside my Ubuntu too. For now it suits my needs. If once not, I will go on XP/Ubuntu dual boot and DipTrace again.

[Mechanic]

Hi Guys,

Well my choice is diptrace. I have tried many before it and they just didn't make sense. Diptrace is straight forward. There are heaps of component library's that come with it and there are also component library's that other users have kindly uploaded to the diptrace site for free download. I have only had to make a couple of footprints for parts that I could not find. It also has a schematic program so you can make your schematic first, then take that schematic and auto place and auto route. But I am lazy, I work from paper schematics and manually lay everything out. That way it is how I want it to be!

Minimum grid size is .001", Excellent for making very tight boards!

The only down side to this program is that it is pin limited to 300 pins/pads or you can get a fully functional 30 day trial. If you were working on something big you could build the different circuit modules, then get the 30day full functional one and combine all of the modules into 1 board.... Probably have to reformat your windows drive somewhere in the process too!!

Design spark seems to have a lot of/all features, but I just can't seem to get it to work for me. I go looking in the footprint library, get lost, and clost the program about 10 minutes later! One day!


Cheers Mick

[simonbaker]

Hi Guys,

Well my choice is diptrace. I have tried many before it and they just didn't make sense. Diptrace is straight forward. There are heaps of component library's that come with it and there are also component library's that other users have kindly uploaded to the diptrace site for free download. I have only had to make a couple of footprints for parts that I could not find. It also has a schematic program so you can make your schematic first, then take that schematic and auto place and auto route. But I am lazy, I work from paper schematics and manually lay everything out. That way it is how I want it to be!

Minimum grid size is .001", Excellent for making very tight boards!

The only down side to this program is that it is pin limited to 300 pins/pads or you can get a fully functional 30 day trial. If you were working on something big you could build the different circuit modules, then get the 30day full functional one and combine all of the modules into 1 board.... Probably have to reformat your windows drive somewhere in the process too!!

Design spark seems to have a lot of/all features, but I just can't seem to get it to work for me. I go looking in the footprint library, get lost, and clost the program about 10 minutes later! One day!


Cheers Mick

Thanks for the info. Diptrace sounds interesting (they need to change the name though, sounds like a derogatory term for your girlfriend's pesky little brother...), but the price keeps me at bay.

I agree about DesignSpark -- maybe just requires putting in the miles before it makes sense and is controllable.

Regards,

-SB