Coronas

[Larry Stier]

All,


Just bring some very interesting postings to the top of the thread bundle.


Can we not speed up the aging process that produce these coronas surrounding aged noble metals. Nitric acid works well with silver and aqua regia does a good job on gold... also, ozone generators over suspected sites might interact with the sun's UV rays to promote an IR or NearVis plume. All metals will react to these acids, but aren't they all in the field anyway. All this CANNOT be done in a lab... each local will be different as to the soil content. As far as salt water, there are minute traces of gold in salt water anyway... very conductive on a micro level. Years ago I believe that soil samples were analyzed for traces of leeched noble metal content. WHAT ABOUT ION COUNTERS... don't we still have access to them.


We use to punch about 50 holes in the ground and pour in a gallon of diluted dish washing liquid (e.g., Joy) to rid ourselves of the hot spots. This seemed to neutralize the hot spots as well as the signals from the treasure.


Just trying to look at from the treasure's point of view rather than the MD's point of view.


As far as the geochemical meter, for $100 we can stop being philosophical about how many teeth does a horse have and just go out and count the damn things... JUST DO IT FOR GOD SAKES!!


Larry Stier

[Sam Scafferi]

Re: Coronas

>All,


>Just bring some very interesting postings to the top of the thread bundle.


>Can we not speed up the aging process that produce these coronas surrounding aged noble metals....


>Larry Stier


Excellent post, Larry, and a great topic.


Just a few days ago, I was discussing this very subject with another individual, who has a lot more experience in this area than I do.


IMO, I would favor the idea of sea water, or salt water. The rather tight covalent bonding of salt is what is responsible for the crystal structures. However, in solution, the sodium and chloride break apart and form positive and negative ions. An abundance of free ions, in proximity to noble metals, could just accelerate the generation of the halo, or corona.


I also like the idea of an electronic form of ion generator, although it might be harder to get the pesky little things to stay around the target.


I'm doing some experiments in this regard, but I'm leaning more towards the electrochemical methods, rather than the electromagnetic.


Always enjoy your ideas, Larry.

[Carl]

Re: Coronas

Regarding the acids, I guess I don't understand what you're wanting to do. Are you talking about field use to speed up the aging process of suspected targets, or do you mean test use to make a test sample look older? In the field, I don't think you want to be dumping nitric acid or hydrochloric acid over a large area where there may or may not be a target.


In the case of gold, aqua regia is not normally found in nature (to my knowledge) and buried gold is normally entirely inert. I've been looking for more info on any possible electrochemical reactions that might take place over time but so far everything I have heard/read suggests that it does not.


- Carl

[Larry Stier]

Re: Coronas

Carl,


Nitric and fluoridic acids are usually in the soil in minute traces. Depending upon the percolation rate of your local soil, these acids will definitely cause a chemical reaction and/or ionic exhange between the gold/silver and many local soils. Just take a metallic pot or tin can and load it almost to the top with gold; pour fluoridic acid or aqua regia over the gold (VERY DANGEROUS); place some soil (ALSO VERY DANGEROUS IF THE SOIL IS WET) on top of that mixture to fill the remainder of the container; place the whole mess in a 6" deep hole IN THE FIELD that'll get plenty of rain to percolate into the container... don't bury it so deep that it'll take years to create the aura. NEVER PUT AN ACID ONTO ANYTHING WET OR VICE VERSA... IT'LL BLOW UP IN YOUR FACE. ALWAYS WEAR FULL FACE AND BODY PROTECTION. You can also water it yourself with salt water to speed up the process.


You can try common household ammonia for copper; the ammonia drippings will turn slightly blue as it reacts with the copper. Common household bleach may also do the trick... I haven't tried that yet because BLEACH AND AMMONIA DON'T MIX WELL (STILL VERY DANGEROUS); however, the heat from this mixture should cause your IR instruments to go nuts from the excaping heat gases underground.


Larry Stier


>Regarding the acids, I guess I don't understand what you're wanting to do. Are you talking about field use to speed up the aging process of suspected targets, or do you mean test use to make a test sample look older? In the field, I don't think you want to be dumping nitric acid or hydrochloric acid over a large area where there may or may not be a target.


>In the case of gold, aqua regia is not normally found in nature (to my knowledge) and buried gold is normally entirely inert. I've been looking for more info on any possible electrochemical reactions that might take place over time but so far everything I have heard/read suggests that it does not.


>- Carl

[Larry Stier]

Re: Coronas

Anyone Interested,


OZONE GENERATORS for field and lab use:


http://www.uvp.com


see PN 97-0066-01 (-02)


Larry Stier


>>All,


>>Just bring some very interesting postings to the top of the thread bundle.


>>Can we not speed up the aging process that produce these coronas surrounding aged noble metals....


>>Larry Stier


>Excellent post, Larry, and a great topic.


>Just a few days ago, I was discussing this very subject with another individual, who has a lot more experience in this area than I do.


>IMO, I would favor the idea of sea water, or salt water. The rather tight covalent bonding of salt is what is responsible for the crystal structures. However, in solution, the sodium and chloride break apart and form positive and negative ions. An abundance of free ions, in proximity to noble metals, could just accelerate the generation of the halo, or corona.


>I also like the idea of an electronic form of ion generator, although it might be harder to get the pesky little things to stay around the target.


>I'm doing some experiments in this regard, but I'm leaning more towards the electrochemical methods, rather than the electromagnetic.


>Always enjoy your ideas, Larry.

[Carl]

Re: Coronas

I was thinking of gold in particular. I agree that you can use acid to dissolve it, but how does this help you locate it? If you're looking for unknown buried gold it's not practical to pour acid everywhere you're looking. If you do this for some kind of test then it becomes unrepresentative of field conditions since the acid (aqua regia in particular) is not found in nature, so far as I know.


There may be some value in looking into this for other noble metals, though, where natural soil conditions allow these chemical reactions.


- Carl

[Larry Stier]

Re: Coronas

Carl,


I agree, but I believe the original intention was to speedup the aging process, resulting in a near-valid field condition of aging for testing purposes.


My intention, however, is not to look at it from a MD's technical perspective, but as observed from the treasure's reaction to it's evironment... I like to call it the root cause of the anomaly. All teasures that we seek are neither large nor old. I believe we all could firmly state that if a treasure is there, we want to retrieve it... no matter how old or how large. If perchance, we could predict the complex nature of the electrolysis lines underneath the ground (matrices) then we would have a basis of narrowing the TH'ing scope to a more managable knowledge base. We all agree that fresh targets are much different than aged targets, but our approach as to the actual retrieval is a varied as the are TH'ers.


Lightening zaps combine with oxygen to create what?? This chemical falls to the ground and seeps into the soil to create what... resistance or conductivity? Any chemical reaction causes a similar electrical reaction. Any electrical reaction does not neccessarily break down the conductor. If this were so then copper wire would be unusable... it still looks like and has the same chemical properties as it always had. Silver oxidizes, and 14K - 24K gold does not; yet, 10K gold will turn black in sea water after years of exposure. It still retains its gold properties. I've found real old gold rings in the water that had their solder joints eaten away, but the gold ring still had all its shap and properties... at least the jeweler thought so.


All metals create there own network of electroysis beneath the ground. Not only within there own metal group, but also within other metal groups. I believe this is called conductivity... and it can go on for miles. I won't bore you with how I trace out these electrolysis lines, but you can do it youself with a brass L-rod pointed downward at a 45 degree angle. Start around noon, over a freshly buried target (after one week) and start sweeping in short arcs until you find a attraction line. Follow this line to it's end... can you find the end? Now multiply that one line by many other lines emmanating from your hot spot, all of which are also intersecting with all the other electrolysis lines and you'll have a very complex matrix to resolve. NC is not like SC as to its soil content, but in SC I could get a target to disguise itself after 3 months. In FL where I am, I can get a target to disguise itself after 1 month. None of this, however, is real-field attributes.


A MD is just another random chance locator!! It is limited as to depth and the desired metal find. I've had PI's that could not find a 14K gold chain at 6" depth, but hit a baby 14K gold ring a 6", a pull tab at 8", and a nice 10K college ring (lost for 25 years according to its owner) too deep to believe. Understanding and resolving the subsurface electrochemical action on all metals within an environment (or setting) could give us deeper insight as to the real challenge presenting itself.


Double blind tests, surface targets, and games do nothing to promote this hobby... only to confuse it and prolong realistic field research.


Who out there can identify a gold ion, a gold molecule, or a gold atom in the field? Let's close our MD technology black box with its limitations and reopen the electrochemical/electromagnetic black box. The GEOCHEMICAL approach is not new. Do we have any geochemical experts out there?


Larry Stier


>I was thinking of gold in particular. I agree that you can use acid to dissolve it, but how does this help you locate it? If you're looking for unknown buried gold it's not practical to pour acid everywhere you're looking. If you do this for some kind of test then it becomes unrepresentative of field conditions since the acid (aqua regia in particular) is not found in nature, so far as I know.


>There may be some value in looking into this for other noble metals, though, where natural soil conditions allow these chemical reactions.


>- Carl

[Dell Winders]

BRAVO, LARRY n/t

>Carl,


>I agree, but I believe the original intention was to speedup the aging process, resulting in a near-valid field condition of aging for testing purposes.


>My intention, however, is not to look at it from a MD's technical perspective, but as observed from the treasure's reaction to it's evironment... I like to call it the root cause of the anomaly. All teasures that we seek are neither large nor old. I believe we all could firmly state that if a treasure is there, we want to retrieve it... no matter how old or how large. If perchance, we could predict the complex nature of the electrolysis lines underneath the ground (matrices) then we would have a basis of narrowing the TH'ing scope to a more managable knowledge base. We all agree that fresh targets are much different than aged targets, but our approach as to the actual retrieval is a varied as the are TH'ers.


>Lightening zaps combine with oxygen to create what?? This chemical falls to the ground and seeps into the soil to create what... resistance or conductivity? Any chemical reaction causes a similar electrical reaction. Any electrical reaction does not neccessarily break down the conductor. If this were so then copper wire would be unusable... it still looks like and has the same chemical properties as it always had. Silver oxidizes, and 14K - 24K gold does not; yet, 10K gold will turn black in sea water after years of exposure. It still retains its gold properties. I've found real old gold rings in the water that had their solder joints eaten away, but the gold ring still had all its shap and properties... at least the jeweler thought so.


>All metals create there own network of electroysis beneath the ground. Not only within there own metal group, but also within other metal groups. I believe this is called conductivity... and it can go on for miles. I won't bore you with how I trace out these electrolysis lines, but you can do it youself with a brass L-rod pointed downward at a 45 degree angle. Start around noon, over a freshly buried target (after one week) and start sweeping in short arcs until you find a attraction line. Follow this line to it's end... can you find the end? Now multiply that one line by many other lines emmanating from your hot spot, all of which are also intersecting with all the other electrolysis lines and you'll have a very complex matrix to resolve. NC is not like SC as to its soil content, but in SC I could get a target to disguise itself after 3 months. In FL where I am, I can get a target to disguise itself after 1 month. None of this, however, is real-field attributes.


>A MD is just another random chance locator!! It is limited as to depth and the desired metal find. I've had PI's that could not find a 14K gold chain at 6" depth, but hit a baby 14K gold ring a 6", a pull tab at 8", and a nice 10K college ring (lost for 25 years according to its owner) too deep to believe. Understanding and resolving the subsurface electrochemical action on all metals within an environment (or setting) could give us deeper insight as to the real challenge presenting itself.


>Double blind tests, surface targets, and games do nothing to promote this hobby... only to confuse it and prolong realistic field research.


>Who out there can identify a gold ion, a gold molecule, or a gold atom in the field? Let's close our MD technology black box with its limitations and reopen the electrochemical/electromagnetic black box. The GEOCHEMICAL approach is not new. Do we have any geochemical experts out there?


>Larry Stier


>>I was thinking of gold in particular. I agree that you can use acid to dissolve it, but how does this help you locate it? If you're looking for unknown buried gold it's not practical to pour acid everywhere you're looking. If you do this for some kind of test then it becomes unrepresentative of field conditions since the acid (aqua regia in particular) is not found in nature, so far as I know.


>>There may be some value in looking into this for other noble metals, though, where natural soil conditions allow these chemical reactions.


>>- Carl

[Carl]

Re: Coronas

>I agree, but I believe the original intention was to speedup the aging process, resulting in a near-valid field condition of aging for testing purposes.


Assuming you use the right chemicals to treat the targets to properly age them. Aqua regia is probably not a correct chemical.


>... We all agree that fresh targets are much different than aged targets...


Except, perhaps, for gold which does not react with anything in normal environmental conditions.


>All metals create there own network of electroysis beneath the ground. Not only within there own metal group, but also within other metal groups. I believe this is called conductivity... and it can go on for miles.


This makes no sense to me. What is a network of electrolysis? What do you mean "within other metal groups"? Conductivity is simply the availability of free electrons. A buried piece of metal will not affect conductivity for miles around.


>A MD is just another random chance locator!! It is limited as to depth and the desired metal find.


An MD is not a random chance locator! It has limitations, but it is not random.


>I've had PI's that could not find a 14K gold chain at 6" depth, but hit a baby 14K gold ring a 6", a pull tab at 8", and a nice 10K college ring (lost for 25 years according to its owner) too deep to believe.


There is actually a scientific explanantion as to why chains are difficult to detect. It is not due to random chance.


Larry, I agree that it may be worthwhile to investigate chemical reactions to long-time buried targets. There may actually be something that can be used to enhance detectability except, I believe, for gold.


But then you go on to explain how you are using L-rods to trace "electrolysis lines". So now you're right back to where everyone else is - using bent wire to try to find things, and (probably) using poor test techniques to evaluate your bent wire. I'm sorry, but I doubt you will make any progress as long as you rely on L-rods for an indicator.


- Carl

[Larry Stier]

Re: Coronas

Carl,


I again agree with most of your replies. I use the L-rod to locate electrolysis lines and to PROVE that they are actually there... some other form of instrumentation or gadget should be use to determine their source and content. A highly sensitive twin-box metal detector can also detect some electrolysis lines and many aged auras surrounding a subsurface metallic target. My comments were not promoting the use of LRL's, but moreso the use of analytical methods of researching the life cycles, sources, and content of these electrolysis lines. Bottom line: let's get out of the MD/LRL syndrome and find the cause of the reaction, and stop finding the reaction without a clue as to its source.


I disagree... Gold is one of the best conductors... above the ground and below the ground. Gold will setup a conductivity network of electrolysis lines below the ground with almost all metals... huge or minute. Electrical conductivity does not neccessarily mean the loss of physical or chemical properties. Waving a piece of copper wire around will pass through some magnetic field that will cause a minute current, but the copper wire has lost nothing as to its physical appearance and/or its chemical properties. Subsurface is NOT A NORMAL ENVIRONMENT. Nitrogen is being recycled through the ground and back up to the ionishpere with every thunderbolt and ensuing UV ray of sun light. We'd have no greens on our planet if it weren't for this and many other chemical reactions below the ground.


As far as metal detectors being random chance, how many trash targets-to-good-targets do you dig with a PI; you're sweeping every square inch of your search area waiting for a beep; your depth is limited, your scope is limited to 2-3 feet around your body at best, and the terrain presents obstacles that are not humanly possible to overcome while MD'ing... how frigging an exact science is that. Sure the MD beeps if it gets a hit, but what happens if it doesn't beep... did you miss it, too deep, or MAYBE there wansn't any metal there... trash or treasure.


Larry Stier


>>I agree, but I believe the original intention was to speedup the aging process, resulting in a near-valid field condition of aging for testing purposes.


>Assuming you use the right chemicals to treat the targets to properly age them. Aqua regia is probably not a correct chemical.


>>... We all agree that fresh targets are much different than aged targets...


>Except, perhaps, for gold which does not react with anything in normal environmental conditions.


>>All metals create there own network of electroysis beneath the ground. Not only within there own metal group, but also within other metal groups. I believe this is called conductivity... and it can go on for miles.


>This makes no sense to me. What is a network of electrolysis? What do you mean "within other metal groups"? Conductivity is simply the availability of free electrons. A buried piece of metal will not affect conductivity for miles around.


>>A MD is just another random chance locator!! It is limited as to depth and the desired metal find.


>An MD is not a random chance locator! It has limitations, but it is not random.


>>I've had PI's that could not find a 14K gold chain at 6" depth, but hit a baby 14K gold ring a 6", a pull tab at 8", and a nice 10K college ring (lost for 25 years according to its owner) too deep to believe.


>There is actually a scientific explanantion as to why chains are difficult to detect. It is not due to random chance.


>Larry, I agree that it may be worthwhile to investigate chemical reactions to long-time buried targets. There may actually be something that can be used to enhance detectability except, I believe, for gold.


>But then you go on to explain how you are using L-rods to trace "electrolysis lines". So now you're right back to where everyone else is - using bent wire to try to find things, and (probably) using poor test techniques to evaluate your bent wire. I'm sorry, but I doubt you will make any progress as long as you rely on L-rods for an indicator.


>- Carl