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  • #76
    Originally posted by Carl-NC View Post

    Yes, better late than never!

    Part 5: Real Responses

    So far we've looked at different responses and applied piecewise-linear solutions to much of it. That is, the PI turn-off was a linear ramp that induced a step EMF in the target. This is a good first-order approximation and a good way to do quick-n-dirty comparisons, like what happens when you try to get a sharper & sharper turn-off slew rate (Part 4).

    In reality, the PI coil is an RL circuit during turn-on and an RLC circuit during turn-off. Equations can be derived that accurately describe what they do. I won't derive them here but rather just toss them out. ITMD3 will have full derivations.

    The turn-on equation is simple:



    The turn-off equation is non-obvious but here it is:



    where is the peak current at the turn-off event.

    Let's look at a realistic example...

    Measured coil parameters:
    L = 300uH
    Rs = 5 ohms (total series R)
    SRF = 500kHz (inc. cable etc)

    VTX = 10V

    The parasitic C for the coil is



    The require damping resistor for critical damping is



    Now calculate the taus:





    VTX (10V) and Rs (5 ohms) tells us the max flat-top current will be 2A. The TX tau os 60us so we would need a TX pulse width of ~300us to reach the flat-top current. A more normal TX pulse width is 100us which makes the calculated peak current 1.62A at turn-off. This becomes the starting point for the turn-off equation.

    Here are both equations plotted in Excel. Note that the turn-on curve spans 100us whereas the turn-off curve spans only 3us.



    Also note that in the turn-off side the tau_RX is 318ns. If you are expecting the current to be substantially gone in 5*tau (1.59us) you can see it is not. The 0.67% mark occurs at about 2.25ns which is about 7*tau, about 40% more than the usual RL curve.

    But that's not the worst part; let's also look at the flyback voltage. Its equation can also be derived:



    We have all the variables from above; the curve looks like this:



    This curve is also plotted to only 3us. The peak hits ~560v which can be calculated from the derivative of the above equation. Note that the peak occurs at exactly tau_RX. If you were to assume that any kind of 5*tau settling applies here, then you would take 0.67% of 560v (=3.8v) and see that it occurs at about 2.57us, which is about 8*tau.

    But this is the raw coil voltage which is then applied to a preamp with a fairly hefty gain, perhaps 500. It's immediately obvious that 3.8v will seriously overload the preamp. To determine a realistic required settling we need to make an assumption: that the preamp must be, say, within 0.5v of settled for the demods to work well. For a gain of 500, this means the coil voltage must be within 0.5v/500 = 1mv of settled. In the curve above, this happens at about 5.42us, or 17*tau.

    You might be thinking that 5.42us is pretty darned good. But this is strictly the coil settling; the diode clamps and the preamp overloading have not been accounted for. And everything above assumes the MOSFET never avalanches.

    [ATTACH]54867[/ATTACH]
    [ATTACH]54866[/ATTACH]
    Hello - really enjoying reading this thread but ... the equations are not rendering. Do I need some special plugin or something?

    thanks
    paul
    Last edited by Carl-NC; 07-22-2024, 10:52 PM.

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    • #77
      Have you tried a different browser?

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by Repwoc View Post

        Hello - really enjoying reading this thread but ... the equations are not rendering. Do I need some special plugin or something?

        thanks
        paul
        On my android phone. The equations are missing for me also on part 5. In other posts, same thread they are okay. Maybe the part 5 attachments are corrupted?

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by Qiaozhi View Post
          Have you tried a different browser?
          Yes - Chrome and Edge on Windows (different PCs) and Kiwi on Android. All the same - just show a little icon as if there should be an image for all the equations.

          If I 'inspect' the icon the page source shows an <image> tag with a source url that contains what I think is LaTex code. I guess there should be a server-side cgi plugin to convert the LaTex code into an image format?

          paul

          Comment


          • #80
            So the formula rendering issue seems to be due to html <br /> tags that are embedded in the img tag src url, eg:

            <img src="http://www.geotech1.com/cgi-bin/mimetex.cgi?<br />
            v_{off}(t) = \frac{I_0}{C_L}\cdot t \cdot e^{-t/\tau_{RX}}<br />
            ">​

            If I remove these (in Chrome DevTools) then the formulae are displayed correctly.

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by Carl-NC View Post

              Yes, better late than never!

              Part 5: Real Responses

              So far we've looked at different responses and applied piecewise-linear solutions to much of it. That is, the PI turn-off was a linear ramp that induced a step EMF in the target. This is a good first-order approximation and a good way to do quick-n-dirty comparisons, like what happens when you try to get a sharper & sharper turn-off slew rate (Part 4).

              In reality, the PI coil is an RL circuit during turn-on and an RLC circuit during turn-off. Equations can be derived that accurately describe what they do. I won't derive them here but rather just toss them out. ITMD3 will have full derivations.

              The turn-on equation is simple:



              The turn-off equation is non-obvious but here it is:



              where is the peak current at the turn-off event.
              In the above quote I have removed the CR/LF after the opening latex and before the closing latex tags. This results in the formulae being displayed instead of the broken image link icons.

              paul

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by Repwoc View Post

                Yes - Chrome and Edge on Windows (different PCs) and Kiwi on Android. All the same - just show a little icon as if there should be an image for all the equations.

                If I 'inspect' the icon the page source shows an <image> tag with a source url that contains what I think is LaTex code. I guess there should be a server-side cgi plugin to convert the LaTex code into an image format?

                paul
                Have you tried Firefox?
                I'm using Firefox on Linux, and it displays just fine.

                Comment


                • #83
                  Works for me in Firefox, but not Edge.

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by Carl-NC View Post
                    Works for me in Firefox, but not Edge.
                    Can you see the formulae in the quoted part of post #81 in Edge?

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Yes

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        I can see it correctly on all my Apple devices, Macs and iDevices but under Safari and Chrome. Some are very old and some are new.

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by Repwoc View Post

                          Can you see the formulae in the quoted part of post #81 in Edge?
                          Just to confirm that I cannot see the equations in Part 5 with Chrome on my Android phone.
                          However, I can see them in post #81.

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            OK, I've fixed all the equations, at least they all show correctly in Edge. The problem (as pointed out by Repwoc ) was the following:

                            This does NOT work:

                            [.latex]
                            latex equation
                            [/latex]

                            But this does work:

                            [.​latex] latex equation [/latex]

                            I'll try to remember that. Thanks for figuring that out.

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Yep, that's done it. Equations now showing in Chrome and Edge on Windows and Kiwi on Android.

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Is it possible to simulate a target response in a PI detector circuit in ltspice? I'm guessing that I'd have to add a coupled inductor to the circuit but not sure how to connect it.

                                Comment

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