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  • #46
    Originally posted by Melbeta View Post
    Wm6,
    I think it would be better, if you sent me your email address, by private message, and we conversed back and forth, by email, regarding your questions. Some I can answer, some I cannot answer, and some I do not want to answer for certain reasons. And some, perhaps I can supply you with copys of technical documents, from my files, or experience, which will answer what questions you have regarding some patent or other questional subject.
    Hi Melbeta,

    I think I am not only interesting in this subject, but you are right, this thread is not proper place to continue discussion about law and patent right.

    Maybe Qiaozhi can move (from post #33 inclusive) this discussion to thread "
    Multi-period patent" started by Carl?

    Thanks for asking, my email is in my profile.

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by WM6 View Post


      Hi Melbeta,

      I think I am not only interesting in this subject, but you are right, this thread is not proper place to continue discussion about law and patent right.

      Maybe Qiaozhi can move (from post #33 inclusive) this discussion to thread "
      Multi-period patent" started by Carl?

      Thanks for asking, my email is in my profile.
      Maybe/maybe not. The discussion started on getting a schematic for the unit and drifted off to patent questions.

      Let me clear this up. The patents on this machine have either expired or will shortly expire in the middle of 2013. At that time the machine can be cloned outright (except remove the White's trademark) and there is nothing White's could do about it. We can at this time take apart the machine, take pictures, and draw a schematic for it, discuss it, and White's can't do anything about that. The patent that is still in effect is for the display unit, but not the front end. So, you could clone the front end, and put in a different computer/metering circuit, and White's could do nothing about that. But it's kind of pointless because the whole point of this machine is to provide a kind of spectral display (well phase) of a target's specific signal.

      The microprocessor can't really do a whole lot as it is limited to 8 bits and 4 MHz MC6805 embedded type. The other chip as someone else pointed out probably provides nonvolatile storage for the program settings. Actually if I were to build this machine today, these chips would not be my choice and I would use different ones. In fact, lately I have been wondering if analogue meters aka old shool target ID isn't better than a computer display.

      So, in short, no the black helicopters are not going to come if you decide to make a complete schematic for your machine. I'd do it if I could pick up a machine that has been run over by a truck and doesn't cost too much.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by technos View Post

        In fact, lately I have been wondering if analogue meters aka old shool target ID isn't better than a computer display.
        Me too.
        To much information, to much settings, to much controls can be funny hi-tech toys, bot not as usable as simple tone/meter information for experienced treasure hunter.

        Is this your truck?:

        Comment


        • #49
          It pays to keep things simple....

          Manufacturers are limited by regulations of a radio device, by the FCC. So they resort to other methods, including making something very attractive, in order to sell it, and imply that it is better than it really is. I found that out when I was a dealer of detectors. I like a machine that allows me to set it, and use it, and if I want to improve it, beyond the controls that are limiting a manufacturer, I can so so. It is not against the law for me to improve my own machine, but it is against the law for the manufacturer to do so...

          And keep in mind, they patent things, they copyright things, when you see a (C) copyright on the chip, the software inside is protected as a proprietary ownership, and it runs longer than patents. Each have expiration dates. So just keep cool on what you do, if they do not know about it, nothing happens...Only when you try to sell their technology it hits the fan...

          So remember, when you post something, that someone is reading it, and things can be introduced into court, as Prima Facia evidence, do everything like you have to protect what you are doing, someday in a court. It is that old adage, "protect your butt".

          And if you read George Payne, you see that digital is not necessarily better than analog, I prefer analog. What they do, is run it as analog, then change to digital for meter. That is what George Payne said in posts.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Melbeta View Post

            And keep in mind, they patent things, they copyright things, when you see a (C) copyright on the chip, the software inside is protected as a proprietary ownership, and it runs longer than patents. Each have expiration dates. So just keep cool on what you do, if they do not know about it, nothing happens...Only when you try to sell their technology it hits the fan...
            Actually no. The supreme court has ruled on this, and has delineated clearly the realm of patents and copyright. Specifically, copyright can not be used to extend legal protection of a device beyond the length of it's patent (20 years). For this example, all you would do is simply switch to another (and better) processor, and the firmware in question would not be copied, and there would be no copyright protection that could be claimed. Interestingly, circuit boards can not be copyrighted either. It would be nice if we could have real public interest representation in congress that would be able to serve the public interest in this area better, rather than solely corporate interests.

            I'm not particularly in love with the performance of this machine. The spectrum eagle seems more evolutionary than revolutionary. But it might could be enhanced with a reworked firmware anyway.

            Comment


            • #51
              Case law pertaining to patents

              These are usually the principal case law, that pertain to patents, that are cited as examples, in major patent infringement cases:
              Gottschalk v. Benson (S. Ct. 1972) In this case, the Supreme Court struggled with whether an algorithm to convert binary-coded decimal numbers into true binary numbers was considered patentable. The Court felt that a patent on this concept would pre-empt the entire mathematical algorithm. Since mathematics could be considered an abstract idea, and abstract ideas are not patentable, the Supreme Court held that the algorithm in question is not patentable. Parker v. Flook (S. Ct. 197 Here, the Supreme Court examined whether a method for updating an alarm limit (used to signal abnormal conditions) in a catalytic conversion process was patentable. The only difference between the prior art and the invention was the algorithm that calculated the new alarm limit. The Court held that this was not patentable even though an additional step was included in the claim beyond merely the calculation step. The Court explicitly rejected the notion that "post-solution activity [alone]... can transform an unpatentable principle into a patentable process." Specifically, the court held that the invention could not be patented "not because it contains a mathematical algorithm as one component, but because once that algorithm is assumed to be within the prior art, the application, considered as a whole, contains no patentable invention." Diamond v. Diehr (S. Ct. 1981) In this 1981 case, the U.S. Supreme Court ordered the P.T.O. to grant a patent on an invention even though computer software was utilized. The invention in this case relates to a method for determining how rubber should be heated in order to be best "cured." The invention utilizes a computer to calculate and control the heating times for the rubber. However, the invention (as defined by the claims) included not only the computer program, but also included steps relating to heating rubber, and removing the rubber from the heat. The Supreme Court stated that in this case, the invention was not merely a mathematical algorithm, but was a process for molding rubber, and hence was patentable. This was true even though the only "novel" feature of this invention was the timing process controlled by the computer. State Street Bank & Trust Co. v. Signature Financial Group, Inc. (Fed. Cir. 199 In this case, the Federal Circuit determined that software programs that transform data are patentable subject matter under Section 101 of the Patent Act even when there is no physical transformation of an article. The court emphasized that software or other processes that yield a useful, concrete and tangible result should be considered patentable. The court also "laid to rest" the business method exception. This means that while prior courts considered business methods inventions to be unpatentable, the State Street court found that these inventions are as patentable as any other inventions. In re Comiskey (Fed. Cir. 2007) The Federal Circuit held that some of claims relating to mandatory arbitration in certain legal contracts were unpatentable subject matter under Section 101 of the Patent Act. The claims that were directed toward unpatentable subject matter related entirely to mental processes (i.e., they covered only the use of human intelligence). Other claims described the same process but further included some type of physical device (such as a "module" or a computer were considered to be statutory subject matter because the claims referred to a machine, manufacturer, or a composition of matter. One of the most interesting parts of this case is the statement that "[t]he routine addition of modern electronics to an otherwise unpatentable invention typically creates a prima facie case of obviousness."If considered good law, this staement would impact the ability to patent any software in the United States. In re Bilski (Fed. Cir. 200 This case analyzed the patentability of processes where the process steps are not not necessarily performed on a computer. The majority decision has set forth a single test for determining the patentability of processes. This test holds that a process is patentable if "(1) it is tied to a particular machine or apparatus, or (2) it transforms a particular article into a different state or thing." This test could have major implications for the patentability of computer implemented business methods specifically, and computer software in general. Unfortunately, the majority opinion decided not to determine whether a software process operating on a general purpose computer is considered to be tied to a "particular machine or apparatus." In other words, the decision as to whether a general purpose computer is a "particular machine" is to be left for another day. If a general purpose computer is not a particular machine, then many software implemented process patent claims could be invalid. A further question to be determined is what effect this would have on "apparatus" claims for computer implemented software. Ex parte Bo Li (BPAI 200 In this post-Bilski decision, the Board of Patent Appeals and Interferences holds that Beauregard claims are still considered patentable subject matter. Beauregard claims are apparatus claims in which a tangible computer storage media is claimed containing software programming steps. While not binding on the Federal Circuit, this decision reassures patent attorneys that Bilski need not be interpreted to alter apparatus-related software claims Ex parte Halligan (BPAI 200 This Board of Patent Appeals and Interferences has no precedential value to the Federal Circuit and therefore should not be considered to be a definitive statement on the law. However, this decision is interesting because it is the first instance in which judges have been asked to decide what the Federal Circuit chose not to in In re Bilski: namely whether the recitation of a general purpose computer in a method step allows the method claim to become statutory subject matter. In this decision, the Board decided that it did not. The claims at issue recited "a programmed computer method" in which each of the process steps was performed by the programmed computer. The Board felt that, if the addition of a programmed computer to steps that were otherwise unpatentable under Bilski were to change the claim from unpatentable under Section 101 to patentable, this would "exalt form over substance." This is just a "field-of-use limitation" which is "insufficient to render an otherwise ineligible process claim patent eligible. " Ex parte Cornea-Hasegan (BPAI 2009) In this case, the Board of Patent Appeals and Interferences effectively ignored its holding in Bo Li, and instead applies Bilski to determine that apparatus claims are not patentable subject matter if they do not meet the particular machine or transformation test. The BPAI held that an apparatus claim to a "computer readable media" must still be analyzed by the Bilski machine or transformation test. To support this holding, the BPAI cited the State Street Bank decision, which stated that "we consider the scope of § 101 to be the same regardless of the form--machine or process--in which a particular claim is drafted." The court also held that the mere recitation of a processor in a method claim does not tie the process to a "particular machine" effectively following the decision of Ex parte Halligan.
              Provisional Patent Applications
              New Railhead Manufacturing L.L.C. v. Vemeer Manufacturing Co. (Fed. Cir. 2002) In this case, the plaintiff invented a new drill bit where the bit body is "angled with respect to the sonde housing." While this angle was described in the non-provisional patent application, the angle was not disclosed in the originally filed provisional application. Unfortunately, the plaintiff had offered the drill bit for sale more than one-year before the non-provisional filing date, and therefore the patent would be invalid under the statutory bar section of 35 U.S.C. 102(b) unless the patent was entitled to the filing date of the provisional application. Since the claim limitation of the angled drill bit body was not adequately disclosed in the provisional application, the inventor could not claim the benefit of the provisional application and the patent was declared invalid.

              Comment


              • #52
                Duration of copyrights time periods

                This is the summation of the duration of copyright time periods:

                Created on or after January 1, 1978:
                This is governed by statutory section 17 USC 302. According to this section, a work that is created (fixed in tangible form for the first time) on or after January 1, 1978 is ordinarily given a term enduring for the author's life, plus an additional 70 years after the author's death. In the case of "a joint work" prepared by two or more authors that was not a "work made for hire," the term lasts for 70 years after the last surviving author's death. For works made for hire, and for anonymous and pseudonymous works (unless the author's identity is revealed in Copyright Office records), the duration of copyright will be 95 years from publication or 120 years from creation, whichever is shorter. For more information on joint works and works made for hire, see the BitLaw discussion on Copyright Ownership.

                Created before 1978, but not published:
                This is governed by statutory section 17 USC 303. Works that were created but not published or registered for copyright before January 1, 1978, have been automatically brought under the statute and are now given Federal copyright protection. The duration of copyright in these works will generally be computed in the same way as for works created on or after January 1, 1978: the life-plus-70 or 95/120-year terms will apply to them as well. The law provides that in no case will the term of copyright for works in this category expire before December 31, 2002, and for works published on or before December 31, 2002, the term of copyright will not expire before December 31, 2047.

                Created and published, or registered before 1978:
                This is governed by statutory section 17 USC 304. Under the law in effect before 1978, copyright was secured either on the date a work was published or on the date of registration if the work was registered in unpublished form. In either case, the copyright endured for a first term of 28 years from the date it was secured. During the last (28th) year of the first term, the copyright was eligible for a second renewal term of an additional 28 years. If no application was filed for renewal, the work would enter the public domain after the initial 28 year term.

                The current copyright law has extended the renewal term from 28 to 67 years for copyrights that existed as of January 1, 1978, making these works eligible for a total term of protection of 95 years. There is no longer a need to make the renewal filing in order to extend the original 28-year copyright term to the full 95 years. However, some benefits accrue to making a renewal registration during the 28th year of the original term.
                In other words, if a work was published between 1923 to 1963, the copyright owner was required to have applied for a renewal term with the Copyright office. If they did not, the copyright expired and the work entered into the public domain. If they did apply for renewal, these works will have a 95 year copyright term and hence will enter into the public domain no sooner that 2018 (95 years from 1923). If the work was published between 1964 to 1977, there is no need to file for a renewal, and these works will automatically have a 95 year term.

                Comment


                • #53
                  My suggestion is to be "very careful".....

                  I have had business friendships, one in particular, who reverse engineered the chip software for General Instruments, his name was Bill Donaldson, from Minnesota, he had several businesses pertaining to after market cable boxes, and General Instruments took him to two federal court actions, and he lost a lot of money, and it put him out of business. What he did, was extract the info, then had his own equipment designed and created in Taiwan, and now is selling Harley Davidson motorcycles in Phoenix area. It broke him financially.

                  Another one, did the same thing, with Scientific Atlanta, he was in California, and they took him to court, cited the Minnesota cases, and they broke him financially too.

                  So be very carefully, information in chips, is software, it is protected as very propriatary in nature, and courts will hold you to the line, just as Microsoft recently found out and are still in the process of finding out, both here and in Europe....

                  What you post, can come back and bite you in the a**. So be very careful, it can be obtained by supoena, and brought into court, to confront you, and the court regards it as prima facia evidence. The only way to overcome it, is to prove beyond any reasonable doubt, that it was not you that posted it....

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    I would like to hear more about this....

                    Originally posted by technos View Post
                    Actually no. The supreme court has ruled on this, and has delineated clearly the realm of patents and copyright. Specifically, copyright can not be used to extend legal protection of a device beyond the length of it's patent (20 years). For this example, all you would do is simply switch to another (and better) processor, and the firmware in question would not be copied, and there would be no copyright protection that could be claimed. Interestingly, circuit boards can not be copyrighted either. It would be nice if we could have real public interest representation in congress that would be able to serve the public interest in this area better, rather than solely corporate interests.

                    I'm not particularly in love with the performance of this machine. The spectrum eagle seems more evolutionary than revolutionary. But it might could be enhanced with a reworked firmware anyway.
                    I have been out of touch for some years now, and do not know the validity of this statement, if you have a link to this information, I would really like to read it. Thank your for your information...

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Whites Eagle Spectrum

                      http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...STRK:MESELX:IT

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        setup guide

                        Hey Sean could you send me a copy or a link of your setup guide for the eagle? Much appreciated.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by asneeze View Post
                          Hey Sean could you send me a copy or a link of your setup guide for the eagle? Much appreciated.
                          Me too Sean.
                          Regards
                          John

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