Whites Eagle Spectrum

[Melbeta]

Sean I will send you the software and info....

Hi Melbeta.

If you like I have a spare (working PCB) you can borrow, but I MUST have it back in working order, so no fancy "hacking" of the MPU please.

This is the ONLY remaining spare PCB for an Eagle Spectrum in the UK AFAIK and I need the board back in case mine ever dies.

PM me your details and I'd be happy to ship it to you for you to experiment with.

BTW is you look up Whites patents on the web, you will find code for the Spectrums display graph in full for ALL to see. Go to the ORIGINAL geotech URL and look at the patents there, failing that try [email protected] (patents)

Sean, I am no longer hacking eprom contents, eeprom contents, gal and pal contents, or microprocessor contents. I have gotten rid of much of my equipment, except for a secured Gal/Pal reader unit, from Run Fei out of China. But I have the software, created by a friend, from Michigan, who is no longer in the hacking microprocessor business either, he was visited by the FBI, and he disappeared. Along with it, I will give you a schematic, and you can build a simple interface board, and you can play with the microprocessor chips. It will read some Motorola chips, and I believe it will read the chip that is mentioned in the Whites schematics which I downloaded from this forum. That is, if they did not secure the sections.

Now let me tell you this, that equipment to read many microprocessors is not available out in the market. Is available only to authorized manufacturers. For example, on Motorolas SCxx series of smart card chips, they give the programmers only to manufacturers who buy those chips, program them, and install them into their own equipment. SC24 for example = Smart Card series 24 chips. Do a search for Motorola MC68HC05SC24 and you will see, only one document is available, anywhere in the world, it is top secret chip. Now the MC68HC705xx series chips, were the predecessors to those secret smart card chips, and in the past, some guys made up units to read various series of them. The C8 would be a series.

We discovered in some old university storage sites, information about those chips, and some guys made units. Hackers today make up their own reader units. The guy in England, published his information on how he hacked microprocessors, but he tore them apart, then found the places inside, and probed and read them. Not what a normal person will do, as it destroys the chip. And I do not want to fool with or accidently damage or accidently destroy your chips.

So if you want to do it, then post and give me, some way, your email, or you get my email address from Carl, and email me, and I will send you material and you can do the experimentation yourself. If you are very careful, you can attempt to read it, and not damage it.

Now inside a microprocessor, is the main body section, where they implant the instructions to operate the Whites Spectrum machine. It may or may not be secured. Many times it is not secured, as they do not believe anyone can get that far. But sometimes the stick to a rigid method, and secure everything. In addition, you will find EEprom sections and Sram sections, these sometimes are secured, and many times are not secured.

It is like that old adage, "a steer can only try and try again". A bull knows he can.

Now if you want the Motorola after market software, and the information on how to build an interface unit, I will have to dig it up from storage CD rom units, as I have deleted it all from my computer. Right now my computer is 100% legit. And if anyone wants to buy my Gal/Pal reader unit, I will sell it. The reader will read some Gal/Pal secured chips, and others it will respond with failure. Nothing is infallible, which is why the guy in England actually penetrates the chips. If you want his material, I can send it also..

But the Motorola unit is now gone. I do have some Microchip reader units, for certain chips, sometimes they work, sometimes they do not work, but if anyone wants to buy those, I will sell them. I think I have 4 different Microchip reader units, each target a different series of chips. But nothing is infallible...

The reason I finally threw in the towel was digital. As things become more and more complex, the precautions change, and it becomes harder and harder. It was hard enough to do it to analog, but even harder to do it to digital. Now to re-create a microprocessor driven unit, is very hard. What I want schematics for, is for repair purposes, or to enhance the technology, not recreate it. I have had enough experience, I do not seek any more experience. So if you want anything I have, merely PM me with your email, and what you want, and I will send it.

[Melbeta]

Error on earlier post....

Just noticed, on my earlier posting, when I mentioned MC68HC70508, that was an error, I really meant MC68HC705C8. The C8 series can be read. The MC68HC05SCxx series cannot be read. There are many SCxx series units, such as SC20, SC22, SC24, SC30, and so on. Those indicate larger and larger chips. SC = Smart Card. Smart cards come out in smart card chips, like what I just mentioned, and also smart card modules.

Motorola designed the smart card chips, and licenses its technology out, to two other chip manufacturers, which is why, you will find three different manufacturers today, making smart card chip technology.

And no one today, to my knowledge, has broken into the smart card chips. Some have circumvented the technology, such as changing the storage bytes in the on-board storage chips, and fooled the microprocessor into thinking the unit was now authorized to operate. I am speaking of cable TV and satellite TV services, both analog and digital.

[Sean_Goddard]

Sadly I don't have the time to do these things BUT...... I would be happy to help anyone who does ;-)

I'm not so sure that attempts to hack the MCU would not make one a target for the FBI or even the CIA, HOWEVER, if it is done under the guise of "Reverse Engineering" and for a NON PROFIT / PROVE A THEORY point of view, then it may be possible - legally (maybe).

I used to to this sort of thing for the UK govt. and we were encouraged to use EVERY and ALL means possible to crack some devices. Some of these were devices that had no obvious military use, but the "powers that be" wanted to know how they worked. I knew one instance where the guy who invented an brilliant idea had it stolen from him. the military just said "Sorry that can be used for national security - Hand it over" and slapped a TOP SECRET rating on his idea, when they FAILED the inventors security check, he wasn't able to view his OWN invention and he had to "forget" it existed or be put in jail !! Seriously, that is how govt.'s steal your ideas.

I'll bet right now, there's some "spook" reading this and watching in case we make a major breakthrough somewhere, then this forum would cease to exist overnight. Free, democratic country? Yeah right!

[WM6]

I knew one instance where the guy who invented an brilliant idea had it stolen from him. the military just said "Sorry that can be used for national security - Hand it over" and slapped a TOP SECRET rating on his idea, when they FAILED the inventors security check, he wasn't able to view his OWN invention and he had to "forget" it existed or be put in jail !! Seriously, that is how govt.'s steal your ideas.

Hi Sean

Quite disappointing.

What is the gurarantee mechanism that one cannot do such things under govt umbrella only for his private interests?

[Sean_Goddard]

None really but that is the "price we pay" for living "free from fear". Personally, I'd prefer it if the UK Govt. gave me back my .357 S&W AND my Beretta 92F. I could put in a sub 3" group at 50yds with both BEFORE some cretin killed a load of innocent little kids in Dunblane. Jeez if the guy had THAT much of a beef, he should have done us all a favour and tapped some politicians .

As a consequence all us law abiding gun users lost our weapons, most of us, me included, NEVER got paid despite the govt. insisting they would reimburse us for our loss.

Now, say you were in your house practicing a baseball swing (bat in hand) some retard could trespass in your garden then say you took a swing at him and you'd get arrested!! In the UK the criminals get off and those that defend themselves get put in jail. Great place to live now eh?

Wish we'd had the US NRA back in 1996. Not just for the gun issue, but it would have helped the UK public to stand up for their rights.

OK, I'll get of my soapbox now as I think I'm somewhat off topic

[Melbeta]

the law is the law....

If you look at the symbol of Justice, you will see that it is a female, and it wears a blindfold. Purportedly because everyone has equal rights under the law. But in actual practice, Justice is blind to our rights. She only works for the people who hired her, law enforcement. I studed law at a University, so I know that to be so....

Now, the reason the FBI raided my friend was because a federal law exists, and prevails against theft of cable TV signals. Prior to that federal law, and subsequent federal laws, and many state laws against theft of cable TV signals, it was covered under "theft of utilities". But "theft of utilities" was rendered illegal and unconstitutional under state Supreme court laws, as one "had to actually prove theft of utilities" at the very time it happened. Sometimes hard to do.

So the federal laws were criminal crimes, the state laws against theft of TV signals are criminal crimes, and of course, the state laws against theft of utilities were very minor crimes, misdeamors if you will, subject to small fines. The federal laws were passed to provide criminal fines and/or imprisonment for violations...

Now there are other laws that cover hacking into microprocessor chips, and these are civil crimes, not criminal crimes. These are covered under the Patents, TradeMarks, and Copyrights laws. All federal of course. But these laws provide no prosecution by federal law enforcement. The injured party, lets say Whites Electronics, will go to federal court, to see redress against their Patent being violated. Or their Copyright being violated. Or their TradeMark being violated. They will seek large sums of money.

I had a friend in Minnesota, who escaped the FBI raiding his office, he had his customers sign agreements, not to use the equipment for any illegal purpose, and to contact their local cable system, and seek permission to use the equipment, for reduced rate. So his case was thrown out by the federal court.

So General Instrument, regrouped, and came after him, for Patent infringment, for Copyright infringement, and they drained and harassed him in court, so much, that he finally gave up, caved in, and accepted a "consent judgment" against himself. This means he did not admit liability, but allowed a judgment against himself for damages. So he left the cable TV business, and went to Phoenix, and became a motorcycle dealer... It cost him a lot of money. If you want to search it, he had operated as Land Of Lakes Cable, I believe it was in Burnsville, MN.

So you see, if you extract the software, which is reading the bytes contained within a chip, you have stolen "proprietary information", which belongs to Whites Electronics. This is an example of course. And you have invaded and violated their "legal copyrights" by extracting and taking their "proprietary information". And in some cases, you can even violate their trademarks.

This is why, this very forum, is extremely careful, when posting "company schematics", to make sure they are no longer in business, or they may suffer legal consequences.

Now on the gun things. I am with you. Our Bill of Rights, recognized that it did not grant unto us, the right to bear arms, but that the right, existed prior to the writing of the Bill of Rights and the writing of the Constitution. But the first U.S. Supreme Court Chief Justice, John Marshall I believe was his name, he was very similiar to our first Secretary of the Treasury, Alexander Hamiliton, and both of them were the sort to want to over-ride what the original written federal laws said.

In Alexander Hamiliton's case, he was a Democrat, for a Democracy, and his opponent was Thomas Jefferson, a peculiar duck, but a Federalist. The Federalist, now the modern day Republicans, said we must stick strictly to the interpretation of the written laws, which were the Bill of Rights and the Constitution. Hamiliton, who was a New York banker, felt that the laws were not really right or valid, and proceeded to "do his own thing" regarding the interpretation of those laws.

Likewise Chief Justice John Marshall, who proceeded to rule and strip out the power of the law, in his opinions, and thus we have the stupid law of today, where our judges all "legislate by court actions and court interpretations", rather than follow the written law as it stands. As such, they read into the law, what they want to read into the law, and our Supreme Court of today, is just a bunch of fat politicans, who perform the will of the prevailing ruling political party at the time of their creation of new "case law".

Case Law, is laws that come into existence, from a court action, or procedure, where a court decision in a case is issued by the decision of the court. So when you go to court, you then CITE what each of the case laws says, CITE what the Bill of Rights says, CITE what the Constitution says, each side CITES, then that new court makes its decision, and a new case law is then created.

We need to clean house. Perhaps what Thomas Jefferson said, is still true. "Some blood needs to be spilled every now and then, to retain freedom". He did not say it word for word, but that is what he basically said. In otherwords, a revolution has to be performed every now and then to clean house....

[Melbeta]

Sadly I don't have the time to do these things BUT...... I would be happy to help anyone who does ;-)

I'm not so sure that attempts to hack the MCU would not make one a target for the FBI or even the CIA, HOWEVER, if it is done under the guise of "Reverse Engineering" and for a NON PROFIT / PROVE A THEORY point of view, then it may be possible - legally (maybe).

I used to to this sort of thing for the UK govt. and we were encouraged to use EVERY and ALL means possible to crack some devices. Some of these were devices that had no obvious military use, but the "powers that be" wanted to know how they worked. I knew one instance where the guy who invented an brilliant idea had it stolen from him. the military just said "Sorry that can be used for national security - Hand it over" and slapped a TOP SECRET rating on his idea, when they FAILED the inventors security check, he wasn't able to view his OWN invention and he had to "forget" it existed or be put in jail !! Seriously, that is how govt.'s steal your ideas.

I'll bet right now, there's some "spook" reading this and watching in case we make a major breakthrough somewhere, then this forum would cease to exist overnight. Free, democratic country? Yeah right!

I agree pretty much with what you are saying here. However reverse engineering is not illegal, but if you invade anothers property, such as a chip, and extract his legal proprietary information, then that is illegal. It is done all the time, you just have to be quiet when you do it. My daugher was married in the past, to the Chief Engineer, of Research and Development, with Cypress Semiconductor. His job and the engineers under him, at his plant, and the plant in California, was to see what the competitors were doing, by reverse engineering. I think it is kind of funny now, he would travel back and forth to China, setting up reverse engineering there, and then, one day, they fired him, and his engineers. Did not need him anymore, he had performed exportation of his job to China.

I attended a conference with Microchip engineers in Denver, they were from Arizona, and I asked them about reverse engineering of chips, and they proceeded to explain to me, how they could enter any chip, and probe it for data. But if you do it to the Microchip chips, they will follow you to hell and back, chasing you for money!!!

The FBI only gets involved if it is National Security, or if a large manufacturer, like General Instrument, Scientific Atlanta, or Motorola, files a complaint with them, then they arrive, with the FBI people, with National Security if it involves national security, with customs if you imported it through customs, and Canadian Mounted Police if it involved Canada, and then they raid you. And of course, it will contain some engineers from General Instrument, SA, or Motorola. That is what happens if you are involved with cable TV or satellite TV theft of signals... I have not heard of any on theft from metal detectors!

Hey, anyone want to help me, borrow and reverse engineer, a top secret metal detector knowledge, belonging to the federal government?

I know of a patent, that I am interested in, that was sold to the USA federal govt. It was designed to be used on a planet. One plugs earphones into it, the left earphone makes you turn left, the right makes you turn right, you can hear some metal out in front of you, and you walk to and toward it, until you pass over it, then the sound stops. It is a seek and find thing....

It would be fantastic to use to "get close" to a buried treasure, wouldn't it????? Then pull out your regular detector, just to see if it as accurate!

It is just owned, but has not been produced, as far as I know. If I recall right, NASA owns it. Maybe they did build it. I think we, the people, actually own the government, and are the government, aren't we? So we would not be hurting ourselves, would we? Does it not belong to us? We are the people. I would like to research, build and test this sucker, for the people... What do you think????

[WM6]

We are the people. I would like to research, build and test this sucker, for the people... What do you think????

I think, be careful, Big Brother is watching you!

[ivconic]

"...In the UK the criminals get off and those that defend themselves get put in jail. Great place to live now eh?..."

Uh...this is so familiar to me! Almost like you are talking about my country!

[Melbeta]

He can keep watching.....

I think, be careful, Big Brother is watching you!

He can keep watching, I do not care. And from the number and way, that terrorists get into the country, he cannot be watching too good....

On a patent, you can change a part here and there, and it circumvents the patent. How do you think that others do the same as the original detector maker? You just cannot duplicate it. Just be careful what you do, and how you do it.

And if they do not specify the part values in the patent, well, then it is a different ball game now, and it opens up the possibilities. One resistor that is not marked, well you can stick in two, that make up the value you think it was....

Let me give you an example. A company, that made audio enhancement devices for metal detectors in the past, file patents on circuits, but no values on the patents. So you can start experimenting, as it will all be your design work, and you pick out and use the values that work the best. After all, they did not protect their design that well, did they? How can they defend a general circuit? See what I mean?

Yours works. but there's will not work, not as patented, as it does not have any values specified. Also, it takes big bucks to hire a patent attorney, and go after you. And they better have a pretty good defensible case, or you can then counter sue and get big bucks from them. Some patents are only scare tactics.... The ones they can defend, are very defensible and explicit... Even Microsoft gets sued for patent infringment....

[WM6]

Some patents are only scare tactics.... ...

Can you explain this?

Is there still any sense to patent anything?

Thank You.

[Melbeta]

Yes and no....

Can you explain this?

Is there still any sense to patent anything?

Thank You.

Yes and no. If you really do a patent well, and disclose everything, then it should be a pretty good patent ,then yes. I define a good patent, as one that one can take into a court of law, defend it, and win the case. If it is a weak patent, poorly drafted, you have your work cut out for you. Even a strong patent, can and will be copied, and the competition will try to make theirs look different than your patent. That is the name of the game....

But I have looked at some patents, and they are merely circuit drawings, with no part identification. So for those, I say no. They are there, for some kind of defense, and they know they did not purposefully identify the parts, as they knew it would make it easier for someone to copy the circuit. And they knew they had a weak patent in the first place, which is why they did not identify the parts. So again, I say no. That is why I said it is more like a scare tactic, to preclude someone, from venturing forth, and copying it, or they will sue him. But mostly attorneys, know whether or not, someone will sue their client. Now I will not explain it beyond that, you can figure that out if you have common sense...

Now in some patents, every part in it is clearly identified, as to what it is, what the value is, and how it works in the system. Go and look at George Payne's patents, and Whites Electronics, and you will see what I mean.

I gave you an example, if you put a bunch of resistors, caps, transistors, and so on, and do not identify the values, the circuit is so general, it will resemble a lot of audio enhancement circuits, that a patent attorney will have a bit of trouble defending. You can do a search for audio enhancement, and many of the circuits will have something in them that is identical. There are many electronic books, and they will have audio enhancement circuits. Circuits are circuits. That is why, they not only patent a chip, they copyright it, and put a notice of copyright, on top of the chip. Makes the defense stronger... So if they put a printed notice, on the top of the chip, such as (C) Motorola, does that not seem to you, like a scare tactic? What they really are doing, is patenting and copyrighting, not the actual surface of the chip, but the technology inside the chip. That chip, has 40 pins, is called a 40 pin dip chip. It looks like other 40 pin dip chips. Is it infringing on the appearance of an earlier chip? No, they are trying to play with your mind. Scare tactic. In court, they are not going to defend the top of the chip, they are going to defend the contents of the chip, and declare you have infringed, upon proprietary information, owned and created by the plaintiff, and placed into that chip, and you broke and entered it illegally, just like you break and enter someone's home or business.... Now, that is as far as I go on the scare tactics, you will just have to see, that in business, we do things, to kind of make you a bit afraid, to tamper with us!

Now you can patent anything, as long as they accept the patent. Just because you have a patent, does not mean it is a good patent. It is just that the patent office accepted your patent. A patent is a registration system...

Now I will say something about a lawsuit. You can sue anyone, for anything, then an appeal to the judge, to throw it out, for some reason or other. If the judge agrees with the defense, it is thrown out. If he denies the defense, it is to be tried. Does not mean the plaintiff will win, just the case has sufficient merits to be tried. Then disclosure happens. Each side, discloses their evidence. Then the evidence is exchanged, generally that is. Sometimes there is a bit of withholding going on, then try to slip it in later on, and objections happen. Then you say, it was just discovered, and see if the judge buys that....

Lets say, I write a song, or a book. I want to protect it. So I take a copy of it, and record it in my local clerk and recorders office. They will accept it, they accept anything for recording. That is their business, recording things, taking payment to record it, they assign a record number to it, then record (enter) it into a book and page, by the date it was recorded.

Now you send a unrecorded copy, to some famous singer. At the same time, you make sure that you get some kind of receipt, for the mailing, to make sure you can prove you actually mailed something to him. It could have been a registered letter, or merely a delivery acknowledgment. So now, you have two documents, to prove you did write the song, and can prove that you did mail him something.

He does not respond, and you hear nothing back. Then in a couple of years, all of a sudden, he is singing your song. Maybe he changed a few things on it, but you know it is your song. Now maybe you never wrote the lyrics to the song, that is not yours! Only the words can be yours. You cannot claim the singers work, only your work.

So you hire an attorney, and he pursues it for you. Lucky you, at least you did more than the normal person, you made sure that a copy of it, was recored into records, on a certain date. Your case is more defensiblee than one that had not any recorded copy, those would be your word against the singers word of denial...

So now, your attorney, chases the singer. Your attorney produces the actual recorded instrument, and the copy of the mailing. Maybe you sang it in a local nightclub. If so, you bring those people into court. So now, all you are battling over, are the words of the song. If you can prove a similiarity, beyond a reasonable doubt, you get paid. The law requires this. If enough of the lines of the song, are yours, you got him... If not, then you do not have him. Unless the entire song, is 100% yours, it is a subjective thing. Subject to the decision of the judge.

Why do you not have him? Well, you cannot patent or copyright words. What is at issue, is your art, your creation, you created something, and that is what you are defending. You can trademark some words. Not all words. You can trademark phrases. Maybe some of the lines of the song, are like some of the lines of the song, but not all the lines of the song are 100% identical. But you have to be careful, maybe someone copyrighted a song, that you now find, was similiar to your song, and to his song. So who had the real original song. See what I mean? He read your song, liked it, did not want to pay you, so he changed here and there, enough that perhaps the judge said, "I do not see any similiarity to your song".

So in some patents, like the audio enhancement people, if you go and look at their patents, they threw in all kinds of variations to their main audio enhancement design. What they were trying to do, is cover the field. But again, they did not identify the part values... They probably could have written a book of circuit designs, but they would not have gotten it through the patent examiner. He has to examine each patent, and see if it can be accepted as a patent. He will not accept baloney. He knows when someone is trying to work him, or work the patent system. And they like to see a working model. Okay, that is as far as I am going to go on this subject...

[WM6]

Thank you Melbeta, very informative.

Can you explain diference in protection power betveen first stage of patent notification and finally stage of patent recognition, if we not use time of duration in account? Eg. in which cases the application is sufficient?

[Melbeta]

Send me your email address....

Thank you Melbeta, very informative.

Can you explain diference in protection power betveen first stage of patent notification and finally stage of patent recognition, if we not use time of duration in account? Eg. in which cases the application is sufficient?

Wm6,
I think it would be better, if you sent me your email address, by private message, and we conversed back and forth, by email, regarding your questions. Some I can answer, some I cannot answer, and some I do not want to answer for certain reasons. And some, perhaps I can supply you with copys of technical documents, from my files, or experience, which will answer what questions you have regarding some patent or other questional subject.

[Aziz]

Hi Melbeta,

Wm6,
I think it would be better, if you sent me your email address, by private message, and we conversed back and forth, by email, regarding your questions. Some I can answer, some I cannot answer, and some I do not want to answer for certain reasons. And some, perhaps I can supply you with copys of technical documents, from my files, or experience, which will answer what questions you have regarding some patent or other questional subject.

we pretty much appreciate your infos here. If it is possible, we would like to have some more insight to the ball of game.

Aziz