RELIC HAWK

[Max]

battery checker and other odd things...

Hi,
I've solved battery checker issue.

The first you need to look at 4024, look at pin2, reset. It must be connected at -Vee not at GND... this is a very stupid mistake or intentionally faked connection.

Then you can leave circuit as in schematic (if you still trust original one... ) and you'll get, about 1Hz pulsating tone when battery will drop under 7V.

Now the problem is... 7V for a 12V gel type means the battery is faked too... or damaged I mean... cause it's too low for normal, good operations. So you'll run device, this way, knowing zero about potential voltage imbalance due to battery till it will , in practice, die.

Smart solution:
put a 27K on pin14 of U11, then you'll get right pull-up action you need.

Behaviour is different this way: when battery goes down 9.45V you'll get a steady unbreaked tone... so you MUST know your battery is discharged.

Consider also that for gel cell this mean about 1.575V per cell, so a good value of discharge... rational and as expected for the unit and batteries of this kind.

The "smart" behaviour is like in AN/PSS-11 old mine detector... that I think inspired ML about this piece of circuit.... it's a steady tone for low battery, you wouldn't ignore it when on a minefield!

Here revision 2.0.

Kind regards,
Max

[ivconic]

I will return to audio again. Interesting thing is that RH uses only earphones, but Musketeer is using speaker (and eraphones if nedeed). So...skim look on both pcb's will lead to conclusion that both audio stages are same. Are they?
Now i am regreting even more cose didnt checked this before selling! Damn!
Imagine to connect speaker instead earphones on RH...what will happen?
I guess pretty weak,mum tone, not sharp an loud as with earphones. But on Musketeer tone is loud and sharp.
So...same schematic but speaker wirements must be different. Any ideas?
Just my 5 cents!

[Fred]

Hi Max,
Thanks for new version
4024 supply change is very important , i may afect other stuff too.Did you try it after that?
For voltage detection i would intead try to play wut the 91K resistor value.

I dont think those errors where intentional.the all looks "logical" .
Hope someone here will buy the RH from UK and show some pictures.
That would be a job for mister Q, then he can sell it again...
Regards,
Fred.

[Fred]

I will return to audio again. Interesting thing is that RH uses only earphones, but Musketeer is using speaker (and eraphones if nedeed). So...skim look on both pcb's will lead to conclusion that both audio stages are same. Are they?
Now i am regreting even more cose didnt checked this before selling! Damn!
Imagine to connect speaker instead earphones on RH...what will happen?
I guess pretty weak,mum tone, not sharp an loud as with earphones. But on Musketeer tone is loud and sharp.
So...same schematic but speaker wirements must be different. Any ideas?
Just my 5 cents!

Yes, very strange that they use such a big audio coil (15mH)just for earphones...they probably kept from other design.
regards,
Fred.

[Max]

I will return to audio again. Interesting thing is that RH uses only earphones, but Musketeer is using speaker (and eraphones if nedeed). So...skim look on both pcb's will lead to conclusion that both audio stages are same. Are they?
Now i am regreting even more cose didnt checked this before selling! Damn!
Imagine to connect speaker instead earphones on RH...what will happen?
I guess pretty weak,mum tone, not sharp an loud as with earphones. But on Musketeer tone is loud and sharp.
So...same schematic but speaker wirements must be different. Any ideas?
Just my 5 cents!

Hi,
they are different at audio stage: there are 2 SMD transistors in Musketeer that there aren't in RH. The 2 transistors are probably some push-pull stage but I'm not sure about...

You can see them here... difficault to follow cause tracks are partially covered by components.

I'm testing RH clone with 16ohm speaker and sound isn't loud... but you can hear, I think a simple 12V, self-oscillating buzzer will solve that problem without more pain but I've not tested that till now.

What I mean are some Murata kind... large buzzers with internal oscillator running on 2.8Khz.

Kind regards,
Max

[Max]

Yes, very strange that they use such a big audio coil (15mH)just for earphones...they probably kept from other design.
regards,
Fred.

I think the 15mH is just a standard component they used in many different things... headphones or speaker... depensd on transistor stages.

You can run it happy with smaller 15mH coil... like neosid inductors... I have one in my PCB.

Sure... if I change 16ohm speaker for 4ohm or mount an hi current draining buzzer I MUST change it too... to meet new current requirements, or wire will "melt" at varnish due to heat.

Not a problem for now...

Kind regards,
Max

[Max]

Hi Max,
Thanks for new version
4024 supply change is very important , i may afect other stuff too.Did you try it after that?
For voltage detection i would intead try to play wut the 91K resistor value.

I dont think those errors where intentional.the all looks "logical" .
Hope someone here will buy the RH from UK and show some pictures.
That would be a job for mister Q, then he can sell it again...
Regards,
Fred.

Hi Fred,
well yes... it's really a stupid mistake there... but not so dramatic as effects if supply voltage is high enough... device will works too cause reset will get a logical zero.

Where it's really problematic ?

If you don't change that... the 4024 will simply stop working at 10.75V along with the rest of circuit ...gates...etc and you'll never be alerted of e.g. battery drop or why it suddenly die that way!

I think some bulgarian folk runs here and there with 3 or 4 batteries always fully charged! Cause still ask himself why that dang thing die at 10.75V!

PS: if not intentionally faked... how explain the schematic on page 1 ? I mean also there the reset connection is wrong (floating... so can get noise...) instead that at -Vee as required.

Kind regards,
Max

[Fred]

Hi Max,
Yes you are right about the other schematic, strange indeed .
But reset input at 2.5V above reference cannot be very good .
will continue working on my PCB, will post pic soon
Problem is that i am making 2 projects at same time.
Regards,
Fred.

[KingJL]

they are different at audio stage: there are 2 SMD transistors in Musketeer that there aren't in RH. The 2 transistors are probably some push-pull stage but I'm not sure about...

You can see them here... difficault to follow cause tracks are partially covered by components.

Max,
This time, those are diodes. BAS16 to be exact (see attached PDF data sheet). SOT23 case. The key is the "A6" marking. If you look at all the other pictures, youll see that they are used all over the Musketeer board (in fact everywhere there is a general purpose diode).

Regards,
J. L. King

[KingJL]

If you don't change that... the 4024 will simply stop working at 10.75V along with the rest of circuit ...gates...etc and you'll never be alerted of e.g. battery drop or why it suddenly die that way!

Max,
I think you may find that under 10.75 V, the oscillator no longer works (at least simulations indicate this).

Regards,
J. L. King

[ivconic]

Max,

This time, those are diodes. BAS16 to be exact (see attached PDF data sheet). SOT23 case. The key is the "A6" marking. If you look at all the other pictures, youll see that they are used all over the Musketeer board (in fact everywhere there is a general purpose diode).

Regards,
J. L. King

I knew that before, only was affraid Max could think that now i am fooling arround. Yes...this time those are diodes not transistors (life is strange, i never thought i would say this!)...
No, seriously...Max if you look more carefully on RH too, you will see those 2 there also. But second look on latest photo .... seems one is diode for sure and other could be transistor!? 3 routes...or i saw wrong?
Anyway, on previous RH schematic (faked one) those 2 diodes are present in audio stage. Reversed actually, protection...limitter...the hell with Minelab's mumbo-jumbo designs!
I remember for sure that those are dides on RH. When my RH burned, i tried to locate problem and checked all componnets in audio part. Beleive me or not i desoldered those two and checked with multimeter - diodes for sure!
But i am not sure in Musketeer case...could be transistors?
Anyhow...i think Minelab solved well, the problem i've been talking about at TGS thread - parasitic ballast at output. At TGS some instabillity and ocassionall mum chatters appears due poor audio output design. On Minelab RH same thing never appeared.And audio at original RH is sweet and very pleasant. Very soft and clear "bleep" when detection occurs.
Could it be the reason of using small transformer and all those filtering with diodes, 1uF capacitor and resistors? I think it could be.
Cose we have same "machine" at Coinseeker but much worse audio...unlike original RH. Coinseeker's audio looks more like on TGS. Escpecially if you pull out 2 of those 3 4148 at 4024 and remove 2 transients...i did that and got almost same tone as on Musketter but not that soft and pleasant.
So...my idea is to take idea from RH or Musketeer and apply on TGSL...only not sure how!?
Regards!

[eclipse]

Coinseeker detection signal sounds really ideotic, specially on the field.
I wounder why would minelab place such a big and heavy transformer instead of normal small inductor?

[Max]

Max,
I think you may find that under 10.75 V, the oscillator no longer works (at least simulations indicate this).

Regards,
J. L. King

Hi,
no... I've tested on my PCB it stays up and running still at 6.5V only.

Kind regards,
Max

[Max]

Hi Max,
Yes you are right about the other schematic, strange indeed .
But reset input at 2.5V above reference cannot be very good .
will continue working on my PCB, will post pic soon
Problem is that i am making 2 projects at same time.
Regards,
Fred.

Hi Fred,
it was at GND... so a bout 5V from -Vee, that could be good enough if +Vcc is high enough.

That's why it worked also with pin2 at gnd, but then, device stops working at 10.75V that way.

Kind regards,
Max

[Max]

I knew that before, only was affraid Max could think that now i am fooling arround. Yes...this time those are diodes not transistors (life is strange, i never thought i would say this!)...
No, seriously...Max if you look more carefully on RH too, you will see those 2 there also. But second look on latest photo .... seems one is diode for sure and other could be transistor!? 3 routes...or i saw wrong?
Anyway, on previous RH schematic (faked one) those 2 diodes are present in audio stage. Reversed actually, protection...limitter...the hell with Minelab's mumbo-jumbo designs!
I remember for sure that those are dides on RH. When my RH burned, i tried to locate problem and checked all componnets in audio part. Beleive me or not i desoldered those two and checked with multimeter - diodes for sure!
But i am not sure in Musketeer case...could be transistors?
Anyhow...i think Minelab solved well, the problem i've been talking about at TGS thread - parasitic ballast at output. At TGS some instabillity and ocassionall mum chatters appears due poor audio output design. On Minelab RH same thing never appeared.And audio at original RH is sweet and very pleasant. Very soft and clear "bleep" when detection occurs.
Could it be the reason of using small transformer and all those filtering with diodes, 1uF capacitor and resistors? I think it could be.
Cose we have same "machine" at Coinseeker but much worse audio...unlike original RH. Coinseeker's audio looks more like on TGS. Escpecially if you pull out 2 of those 3 4148 at 4024 and remove 2 transients...i did that and got almost same tone as on Musketter but not that soft and pleasant.
So...my idea is to take idea from RH or Musketeer and apply on TGSL...only not sure how!?
Regards!

Hi,
ok... they are diodes this time ... but the question is ... how the hell Musketeer drives the speaker directly if the stuff is the same that at RH ?

Really confusing stuff...

Kind regards,
Max