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Bounty Hunter Red Barren 7 schematic

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  • #61
    One think I learned long ago and somewhat mentioned previously is A - caps for some reason are not on your mind in repairing a bad circuit, it seems I always refused to consider them, and B - they more often than not are what begins a circuit failure, often taking out other parts when they go. Virtually always the failure is a short circuit, even disc ceramic in lower voltage than their ratings situations. Something you would not think probable but I often see 50 volt disc caps shorted in 8 volt circuits. Clearly the most likely reason is some defect in manufacture. Tantalums likewise probably manufacturing defects most often. Or they short because they just do not like you for no apparent reason. This leaves electrolytics, I think I only recall one or two poly or mylars over the years failing without a reasonable cause. The problem with electrolytics is temperature or storage. Storage is the most often cause of the 10 volt blues I mentioned previously. They transfer the oxide from one side to the other over time when unpowered. Years later you turn it on, and usually fairly quickly they short from electrochemical action. A much more rare failure for liquid dielectrics in low voltage circuits is drying out and 'losing their capacitance'. This failure mode usually is in high voltage filters combined with heat, typically they lower in uF as they increase in leakage until you blow HV diodes. The single best way to maintain electrolytics in equipment is to take it out of the closet at least once a year and power it for an hour or two. This can greatly multiply their survival time to decades.

    Do not randomly replace tantalums with electrolytics unless you have a clear understanding of their circuit function in a given location. In many circuits they are critical because types such as electrolytics while providing high capacitance per unit size have much greater leakage. In the wrong location this can bring proper circuit function to a halt. As I mentioned before usually in power filtering functions in low voltage circuits probably you will not have a problem. In other areas needing somewhat high capacitance yet very low leakage tantalums are critical. If you do not understand in depth the circuitry do not substitute one type for another. If you have a precision filter network in a high impedance opamp circuit putting in a cheap disc ceramic instead of a poly or mylar can cause you much grief. As a rule if you are not engineering savvy stick with what the engineer used and trust they knew more than you.

    If your quest is to go in depth into circuit repair I also suggest you look for a transistor tester which indicates not only beta but also leakage down to 1 or 2 micro amps, and works on both low power and high power devices. I have owned an old Sencore TR-15A for over 40 years and I still use it daily. Not portable but I prefer it to a half dozen modern portable models some of which were in the 500 dollar price range. None of them are as good on a power transistor looking for 1 to 5 uA specs in an RF amplifier device such as a 2SC2879. I do use a cricket and a B&K for quick lead identification and good/bad/leaky (kinda, not so accurate as my Sencore), have 3 or 4 more really good ones I seldom take out of a box, and most often I like my Fluke 23 beep for fast searching of junction defects. Curve tracers are nice also but labor intensive if you do massive amounts of repair.

    Comment


    • #62
      RED BARON 7 ANOTHER ONE

      Hello again to the Red Baron Followers At the moment I just fixed two VLF/TR 840 That the sound or threshold could not being controlled.If the coil is no good that's when you are lucky that's the symptom constant full audio and needle deviation not able to be controlled like if you didn't have a coil plug in.In my case it's the hard one due to the work involved and that is the I.C-CA3140 In the tuning Module were no good.Getting back to the Red Baron.
      NostalgicMeditations because I must be the only few people that have done so much work and research on the first one with a positive final solution explain in post 29 by me through Homefire just by looking at your lower photo were the transistor is circle and all the solder joints are I can see that you have the power wiring wrong like post 35 by MarksSupplies.Explain in detail going by an original wiring in my post 47.As far as I can gather and don't know why since I had and I have again another one but single board by looking at the power wiring .POST 30 BY SOME NICE FELLOW WITH THE ORIGINAL POWER WIRING IN PHOTOS TOP RIGHT AND BOTTOM RIGHT LONG WHITE TOOTHPICK IS POINTING TO THE POSITIVE AND NEGATIVE COMING FROM EACH POWER PACKS.AND THE RED POSITIVE WIRE IF YOU TURN THE BOARD AROUND GOES TO WERE THE PLUS CLEARLY SHOWING ON THE BOARD TRACK.THERE ARE THREE BLACK WIRES AND NEXT TO THEM IS THE RED.MarksSupplies has the negative (now four blacks)POST AGAIN 35.
      SO LOOKING AT YOURS YOU HAVE DONE LIKE HIM HAVE FOUR BLACK WIRES.WHEN IT SHOULD HAVE THE POSITIVE RED CLEARLY MARKED WITH A PLUS ON THE BOARD.SO WITHOUT GOING INTO DEEPER SEARCH OF THE TRANSISTOR GETTING BLOWN.IT'S A PNP SWITCHING TRANSISTOR LOOKING AT THE FACE IS EMITER-BASE-COLLECTOR AND LOOKING AT THE SPECKS IT'S NOT THE VOLTAGE BUT THE POLARITY IN YOUR CASE AND MAYBE THE LM358 NEXT TO IT GETS VERY HOT.FOLLOW THE EXPLANATION OF MY POST TO marksSupplies 47.YOU NEED POSITIVE FROM ONE BATTERY PACK TO WERE THE PLUS IS(YOU HAVE NEGATIVE)NEXT TO IT TO LEFT OF YOUR PHOTO GOES THE NEGATIVE OF THE OTHER POWER PACK.AND THE TWO REMAINING WIRES GO TO THE OFF ON THE POT SWITCH.BUT AGAIN THE PROPER WAY CLEARLY SHOWN ON POST 36 WERE THE POT AND SPEAKER ARE SHOWING REMAINING POSITIVE WIRE TO THE BOTTOM OFF AT THE LEFT AND THE NEGATIVE TO THE BOTTOM OFF AT THE RIGHT CONTACT.AND I SEE THAT YOU HAD THE POT PLAYING UP YOU HAVE TO MAKE SURE YOU GET FOLLOW UP FROM OFF TO ON.I WISH SOMEONE EXPLAINED TO ME THIS WAY WHEN I HAD THE RED BARON WITH NO WIRES AT ALL.GOOD LUCK AND LET US KNOW HOW YOU GO.CHEERS

      Comment


      • #63
        Hi conan
        Has i can see you have some knolegment about BH VLF/TR 840.
        I m still own my first detector that indeed is a BH VLF/TR 840. This machine gave me a lot of
        nice find on my first metal detecting trips. The detector is working ok, but always you want to know if is posible to made some mods the get from it a better performance.
        So my questions is if you have any comments or information about mods for this machine.
        In advance many thanks

        Nelson

        Originally posted by conan View Post
        Hello again to the Red Baron Followers At the moment I just fixed two VLF/TR 840 That the sound or threshold could not being controlled.If the coil is no good that's when you are lucky that's the symptom constant full audio and needle deviation not able to be controlled like if you didn't have a coil plug in.In my case it's the hard one due to the work involved and that is the I.C-CA3140 In the tuning Module were no good.Getting back to the Red Baron.
        NostalgicMeditations because I must be the only few people that have done so much work and research on the first one with a positive final solution explain in post 29 by me through Homefire just by looking at your lower photo were the transistor is circle and all the solder joints are I can see that you have the power wiring wrong like post 35 by MarksSupplies.Explain in detail going by an original wiring in my post 47.As far as I can gather and don't know why since I had and I have again another one but single board by looking at the power wiring .POST 30 BY SOME NICE FELLOW WITH THE ORIGINAL POWER WIRING IN PHOTOS TOP RIGHT AND BOTTOM RIGHT LONG WHITE TOOTHPICK IS POINTING TO THE POSITIVE AND NEGATIVE COMING FROM EACH POWER PACKS.AND THE RED POSITIVE WIRE IF YOU TURN THE BOARD AROUND GOES TO WERE THE PLUS CLEARLY SHOWING ON THE BOARD TRACK.THERE ARE THREE BLACK WIRES AND NEXT TO THEM IS THE RED.MarksSupplies has the negative (now four blacks)POST AGAIN 35.
        SO LOOKING AT YOURS YOU HAVE DONE LIKE HIM HAVE FOUR BLACK WIRES.WHEN IT SHOULD HAVE THE POSITIVE RED CLEARLY MARKED WITH A PLUS ON THE BOARD.SO WITHOUT GOING INTO DEEPER SEARCH OF THE TRANSISTOR GETTING BLOWN.IT'S A PNP SWITCHING TRANSISTOR LOOKING AT THE FACE IS EMITER-BASE-COLLECTOR AND LOOKING AT THE SPECKS IT'S NOT THE VOLTAGE BUT THE POLARITY IN YOUR CASE AND MAYBE THE LM358 NEXT TO IT GETS VERY HOT.FOLLOW THE EXPLANATION OF MY POST TO marksSupplies 47.YOU NEED POSITIVE FROM ONE BATTERY PACK TO WERE THE PLUS IS(YOU HAVE NEGATIVE)NEXT TO IT TO LEFT OF YOUR PHOTO GOES THE NEGATIVE OF THE OTHER POWER PACK.AND THE TWO REMAINING WIRES GO TO THE OFF ON THE POT SWITCH.BUT AGAIN THE PROPER WAY CLEARLY SHOWN ON POST 36 WERE THE POT AND SPEAKER ARE SHOWING REMAINING POSITIVE WIRE TO THE BOTTOM OFF AT THE LEFT AND THE NEGATIVE TO THE BOTTOM OFF AT THE RIGHT CONTACT.AND I SEE THAT YOU HAD THE POT PLAYING UP YOU HAVE TO MAKE SURE YOU GET FOLLOW UP FROM OFF TO ON.I WISH SOMEONE EXPLAINED TO ME THIS WAY WHEN I HAD THE RED BARON WITH NO WIRES AT ALL.GOOD LUCK AND LET US KNOW HOW YOU GO.CHEERS

        Comment


        • #64
          BOUNTY HUNTER

          HELLO NELSON YES THE BIG ADVANTAGE WITH THE 840 VLF/TR OR EVEN THE BLACK BOX OUTLAW DE 280 WITH THE UNIQUE GREEN LIGHT IS THE FACT THAT THERE IS NO MOVEMENT OF THE COIL AND THEY DETECT METALS UNDER EVEN TO THE POINT IF YOU HAVE IT PROPERLY TUNED IN DISCRIMINATION THERE IS NO MOVEMENT SO YOU CAN PROVE UNDER WATER IN WALLS IN CAVES MINE SHAFTS LOOKING FOR MISSED VEINS AND SO ON WERE MOVEMENT IS NOT POSSIBLE OR COMFORTABLE.AND THE BIGGEST BENEFIT IS THE FACT THAT IT USES TWO NINE VOLT BATTERIES NOT LIKE THE OTHER ONES TRYING TO FIT BATTERY PACKS IN COMPARTMENTS WITH HARDLY ANY ROOM TO FIT SO MANY BATTERIES AND THEY DON'T HAVE ISSUES LIKE IT'S DEMONSTRATED IN THIS LONG THREAD ALL ABOUT WIRING AND POWER PACKS FOR THE RED BARONS 3-5-7 THE RED BARON 10 THEY WOKE UP GOING BY THE LIFETIME WARRANTY AND PUT ONE PACK 12 VOLTS AND IT'S MORE POWERFUL THEN ALL THE MODELS BEFORE.GOING BACK TO THE 840 WITH METER OR WITH OUT.IT'S A GOOD COIN FINDER PARKS PLAYGROUNDS SCHOOL YARDS AND LOST RINGS AT THE BEACH GOLD PROSPECTING IT'S LIMITED TO THE SIZE OF THE NUGGETS.IT'S ONLY GOT THREE IC's AND ABOUT TEN TRANSISTORS SO YOU CAN'T SQUEEZE MUCH MORE OUT OF IT.BY PUTTING A DEPTH MULTIPLIER OR AMPLIFIER THROUGH THE HEADPHONE GIVES YOU SOME BETTER STRONGER SIGNAL ON SMALL ITEMS LIKE ALLUVIAL NUGGETS GROUND BALANCE IS REALLY GOOD IF YOU TUNE IT TO A SAMPLE OF REALLY BAD IRON OR BLACK SOIL WITH A LOT OF MINERAL IN IT.IF YOU WANT A POWERFUL NO MOVEMENT OLDER WELL MADE DETECTOR CAPABLE OF PICKING UP TINY NUGGETS AS LOW AS 1/2 A GRAM WHEN THERE ARE WELL TUNED YOU HAVE TO GO WITH THE GARRETT ADS DEEP-SEEKER OR THE SCORPION.BUT FOR NORMAL DETECTING AND HAVING FUN THE 840 IT'S O.K.WITH BOUNTY HUNTERS YOU CAN'T GO WRONG WITH THE TOP MODELS LIKE LANDSTAR OR TIMERANGER GOOD ALL ROUNDERS WITH ALL THE FEATURES AND FUNCTIONS.BUT THERE A PLASTIC MADE MASS PRODUCED AND SURFACE MOUNT COMPONENTS A NIGHTMARE TO REPAIR.NOT LIKE THE GOOD OLD ALUMINUM BOX CONSTRUCTION ABLE TO COMPLETELY TAKE APART CLEAN TUNE AND GIVE THEM ANOTHER LIFETIME OF USAGE YOU JUST HAVE TO USE THEM VERY NOW AND THEN TO KEEP THEM HEALTHY AND ALIVE.IF YOU KEEP THEM FOR YEARS NO USAGE IT'S LIKE DR-VEL SAYS THEY GIVE UP ON LIFE AND DIE.KEEP THEM ALIVE GO TO YOUR PARK UNDER FRIENDS CLOTHES LINE ANYWHERE HAVE SOME FRESH AIR IT WILL DO YOU GOOD AND YOUR OLD DETECTOR WILL APPRECIATED.POSTED IS MY DE 280 OUTLAW VLF/TR/DISCRIMINATOR IN MINT CONDITION
          Attached Files

          Comment


          • #65
            Thanks Conan for getting back to me- really appreciated. On the point where where the + is on the circuit I have a positive red and an negative black hooked up from the battery pack. Might be hard to see from the picture of the top of the board but easier from the my picture of the bottom. Seems to be connected just like your single board (with the leads from one black and red connected) and seems to be like the one the other person posted (except their black wire is almost hidden behind the red in the pic). To be honest I don't ever recall messing with the power wires (and neither has anyone else- probably the first person to open it). Volume DPST/ pot is hooked up just like the pictures you refered to.

            Having said that some of the tantalums in the circuit seem to have a dead short- will remove them and test outside. from what I read if tantalums ever go bad its usually they short. About 4 appear to be. At least 2 on that board. All 10v 33.

            Don't know if this ever had anything to do with it but they say on my Nautilus (at least with the 15in coil) don't leave the coil plugged in during a lightning storm or else the detector can be damaged. Could that have caused it. Only other thing is maybe someone put some 9vs in and fried the tantalums, etc? They can't handle reverse polarity well or maybe they died from age. Before we took it apart my father said he took it out from storage and tried it some years ago and it smoked some back then as well- if he remembers correctly. Thanks.


            On another note that metal can (I believe IC- has 5 leads and the circuit is drilled out for a standard LM 358N socket) a tantalum cap seems shorted. The suspected Ic is labeled CA3140s RCA 019 (made by RCA?). A tantalum nearby seems shorted so if I can find a replacement rather than testing (as I don't have anything to test an IC) it would probably be best. Have all the other ICs and did the IC sockets you suggested- great idea by the way.

            Comment


            • #66
              After looking at it more Conan I could swear its connected how you first said it should be hooked up (with a pos and neg wire connecting in common on the board in the same place and the other 2 going to the pot/ volume). It is clearer in the picture of the bottom of the board. I think Dr Vel is correct. The Tantalums are probably shorted out (pretty common when not derated and sometimes just happens). Maybe they didn't realize they should be derated back then? The schematic says there is around 8v on that leg and the Tant cap is 10V. According to the current manufacturers specs of tantalums they should be de rated to around 16V in this instance. So I should be replacing them with 16V 33uf tants (or 10V electrolytics as yours seems to have and some of Mark's are). Think that is my problem. If you look at the picture of the schematic I attached you will see the poor MS3638A which is forced to act like a fuse when the nearby tant is shorted (I believe its the one circled in red). If the tant is shorted then one leg of the Transistor is receiving 12+ and the other around -12. No wonder it keeps burning out. Center leg (B) doesn't seem to get quite as hot as it still has silicone on it after burned- other two (C and E) didn't on one. Makes sense. When I take the ohm meter to the tant on the board its a dead short and it says that leg (connected to the tant cap) of the MPS3638A Trans is dead shorted to the ground as well. I think that is my problem. There are about 4 bad Tants inside my RB7 out of 10 (and all of the 4 out of 10 are the 10V). Sounds like they should either be replaced with electrolytics (like most of yours seem to be and some of Mark's) or replaced with derated Tants (in this case 16V). I will not be taking them out of the boards till the new Tants arrive so as to not make a mistake mixing up polarities- pretty sure its the problem though. Will let everyone know when they are replaced if that was it (should take a week or so to get new ones). Open to suggestions and advice though.

              ANOTHER ISSUE. One of the 4 shorted Tants is bridging the metal can IC CA3140S. I don't have a tester so it would be easier/ cheaper to just replace it. 8 pin holes are in the board so at least that is easy. Problem is I can't find one. According to Mouser NTE7144 might be a possible replacement for a CA3140 but nothing on a CA3140s (unfortunately a 2 week delay time and $7 to ship anyways). There are some different varities of according to Digikey. Here is the link:http://search.digikey.com/scripts/Dk...eywords=CA3140 Not sure if any of those are compatible though- codes are all different at the end. Anyone have any ideas? I'd rather order it as the same time as the caps to save on time and shipping. Thanks

              So close and so far at the same time. Oh well.
              Attached Files

              Comment


              • #67
                RCA and CA3140S were taken over by Harris-Intersil and components were then given different designators to match HI's standard (and also probably the S package was obsoleted). The T package would be the modern version but with all 8 pins.

                So long as your PCB is drilled with 8 rectangularly aligned holes you could use the 8-DIP package or also the round can package. These may be called by different letters depending on which manufacturer's product you are looking at. I won't try to explain the different suffixes for different manufacturers, because that is what device data sheets are for. But just so long as you don't purchase the SMD package you should be OK.

                If you get the "A" version such as CA3140AEZ, the A refers to electrical specs (not mechanical) and has tighter specs that may or may not do you any good but almost certainly won't hurt. (There are some exceptions to this rule but it should not matter here.)

                If you get the round can version, make sure you find out where the index mark is for pin-1 because sometimes that can be confusing. The round pins can be bent into a rectangle, just make sure you have the correct pin-1 reference before you start.

                The point of this, is that you should not have much difficulty finding a replacement. Different manufacturers use different suffixes to denote the same parts (there is no standardization between manufacturers, only within a single company)! If in question, DOWNLOAD the device data sheet from the same manufacturer whose product you are interested - in other words, don't look at an Intersil datasheet if trying to figure out a Motorola device, or vice-versa.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Thanks Porkluver. Everything came here today from Digikey so I started replacing the caps, etc. Seems like only one was bad. It was the 10V one next to the MPS3638A transistor as suspected previously. Replaced all of the 10V and 16V with ones that were derated properly (since it happened once and don't want it to occur again). Looks like eveything is almost ready to fire her up again after all those years.

                  One final dilemma- 2 of the wires going to the coil were broken when I first took it apart and I can't remember which spot they go to. Not sure if they are mixed up. Mark's picture of them is how I have them now but the RB7schematic someone was kind enough to post says they go the opposite way. Does anyone know where they go for certain? Don't want to fry anything else now that I have got this far. I attached a pic. Its the orange and white (with orange stripe) and they are circled in red on the picture. Any help will be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

                  Once I get her fired up I'll let everyone know if it went well or if she melted down again. With all the info on this thread it should be possible for people to save more of these detectors.
                  Attached Files

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Well. The SPD/ Disc works now (beeps when a penny is waved past the coil) but no all metal or threshhold..... Impossible to Ground Balance as of right now. Any Ideas anyone? At least the MPS3638a transistor isn't burning up anymore- it was the Tantulum cap that was shorted out near it. Weird thing is one battery pack registers on the gauge when the switch is flipped but not the other though it still will not work when either one is unplugged at all. At least no more smoke for now but does anyone have any other ideas? When I check a few spots on the meter board with the multimeter (and the battery packs unplugged) there is a slight humming sound when I touch a few points- must be the multimeter supplying a little power to the circuit. power. So close and yet so far.

                    All the 10v caps have been replaced as well as the 16v electrolytics, all the ICs, two MPS3638a (one on the meter board) and an MPSA13. Also made sure the DPST 500 ohm pot is working correctly (on/ off volume switch). Only transistors not replaced yet are the MPS653 and the MPS6521. The MPS 6523 are on their way but does anyone know of a substitute for the MPS651? Mouser and Digikey don't have them- obsolete. Any help on this is greatly appreciated. All diodes have been checked and one of the zeners was replaced. I know there is a special way to test them but this one read the same both ways out of the circuit- probably fried as it shouldn't do that (the other one didn't). Thanks again.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Hello Homefire. I have just joined geotech as I have a problem with my bounty hunter Red baron. when batteries are fitted the meter shows 2 onA and when you switch for battery check B it shorts out to Max on meter. that's why my repairer is after a wiring diagram. you say the guy here in Australia has diagram if we can get that from him we should be able to repair his detector also. please help most appreciated regards fastman

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                      • #71
                        Been A While. Let me see if I can located it. Where Are You ? I have a Paper copy I have no need of.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          D-rb7 page 1aa.pdfD-rb7 Page 2.pdfD-rb7 page 3.pdf

                          These are a bit hard to read some spots. Let me know if you need anything else.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            thanks homefire. I found 3 pages on forum including the one you sent. kindest regards fastman.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              hello Homefire sorry I didn't answer your post I live in mandurah western Australia. I have downloaded your page great thanks fastman

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Hello, can you also post the rest of the Red Baron scheme. Greetings!

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