Manta !!

[WM6]

In fact, good business is very simple.

You only need good idea - sheep are always around.

Idea like this:

[daverave]

i noticed on their youtube video that they claim about 19" on a platinum ring which is of course good depth...they also claim a 6 amp battery capacity but how do they get that all in a small control box including electronics...also they never quote battery consumption...seems nice detector but very vague on spec.

[daverave]

ohhhh ive seen it all now looking at this ebay listing

[WM6]

Of course there are huge improved versions too - using dead scientific OTC calculator and two fixed antennas:

(Who say that business is not possible for inventive guys?)

[Nupi]

Lot of true points.
"...really better than the competition but with a higher price..."
That's one option. Another option is to make good product and form acceptable price for wider markets and sell larger quantities.
It's matter of choice.
"...Apart from the many tricks..."
That's the "marketing" on lowest level.
In most of the cases we don't see drawbacks but only good side of presented product.
In the past i had splendid idea but never really tried to present it in public.
Since the Geotech is most probably one of the few top places on the Internet for these subjects; i had idea to suggest the formation of expert group for testing and control of metal detectors.
Such group will be official and will perform uniform, standardized and transparent series of testings.
Even contracts and agreements may be signed between group and manufacturers.
Group will perform all the testings, comparisons, checks and will write reviews. Similarly done as in other industries. And finally people world wide will have completely independent and reliable references.
It is possible to start this here. In time it can be taken more seriously. Members of such group must be chosen objectively and democratically by several criteria.
But that's quite another story... let's not spoil this topic and go too much off.
Manta is interesting indeed. I would like to see more videos of it.

What's for somebody is expensive can be cheap for another that is of course relative, I guess.
The best solution seems to me to find a balance between quality and price and it is very difficult,the pricing depends heavily on the price of their competitors.

So, we come back with the same problem redemption price is strongly dependent on the number of products that let you manufactures and for a large number you need a large number of dollars.
This is the returning dilemma, or you have a rich uncle who wants a gamble to invest a quarter of a million of dollars.

As a small business owner you can not compete with the prices of the big players.



"i had idea to suggest the formation of expert group for testing and control of metal detectors."
It's an excellent good idea and I think there is certainly demand for it but I wonder if Geotech is the appropriate forum.
Imagine that a detector of the Carl new employer scores badly in the test, what can not be excluded and could conceivably. I think they are not happy about it,
but you are somewhat dependent on them.
I ask myself whether you can remain neutral.
If you set this up is neutrality a prerequisite for many and that's a excellent aspiration.

But it remains an excellent idea.

[ivconic]

What's for somebody is expensive can be cheap for another that is of course relative, I guess.
The best solution seems to me to find a balance between quality and price and it is very difficult,the pricing depends heavily on the price of their competitors.

So, we come back with the same problem redemption price is strongly dependent on the number of products that let you manufactures and for a large number you need a large number of dollars.
This is the returning dilemma, or you have a rich uncle who wants a gamble to invest a quarter of a million of dollars.

As a small business owner you can not compete with the prices of the big players.



"i had idea to suggest the formation of expert group for testing and control of metal detectors."
It's an excellent good idea and I think there is certainly demand for it but I wonder if Geotech is the appropriate forum.
Imagine that a detector of the Carl new employer scores badly in the test, what can not be excluded and could conceivably. I think they are not happy about it,
but you are somewhat dependent on them.
I ask myself whether you can remain neutral.
If you set this up is neutrality a prerequisite for many and that's a excellent aspiration.

But it remains an excellent idea.

"...What's for somebody is expensive can be cheap for another that is of course relative, I guess.
The best solution seems to me to find a balance between quality and price and it is very difficult,the pricing depends heavily on the price of their competitors..."

Yes it is true. But ratio of "rich"/"poor" or "can afford"/"can't afford" people will give you good guidelines on how to make final aim for the product and market.
Is it product for massive sell and wider market or is it product for limited sale and very narrow market.
For example; bread. It is massive sell, simply because all the people on the world must buy bread.
Detectors; exclusive and completely "trivial" product. Barely 1% of world population will be interested to buy such product.
Now; real dilemma is: those 1% of people, are they "rich" or "poor", "can afford" or "can't afford"???
Of course; 99% of those are "poor" and "can't afford", especially when it comes to "trivial" and "irrelevant to have" product.
Further; 99% of those already do have one or few devices and certain experiences.
If Minelab comes out on market with device and price at $10 000 - it is one thing, but if "unknown" comes out on market with device and price at $10 000 - that's quite another thing!
Generally it is VERY BAD move to start new business with hot prices. Generally it ends up fast with just dozen sold pieces.
Reputation is something which is built in years... if one is having serious intentions and plans.
On other hand; price without reputation usually ends up like Nokta, OKM and several other examples.
Now after all the mess which was seen in the past; Nokta may even make splendid device, but no one will bite that. Because reputation has gone down the drain already.

"...the pricing depends heavily on the price of their competitors..."
This is wrong and correct at the same time. Depends on many side factors.
Pretty subjective... we may say.

"...I ask myself whether you can remain neutral..."
Yes of course. If that's something you accepted to do professionally; than of course you MUST remain neutral and objective.
Otherwise your reputation will go also down the drain very fast!
But you can't expect fair, neutral and objective attitude in everyday life and from relaxed situations like this one is on these forums.
Because nobody here is payed to do the job professionally, nor signed any kind of contract.
Here people are free to say whatever they want, to make jokes and be relaxed. Also to "cheer" for their favorite brands and models.
That's common and expectable and not that bad at all.
Me personally... i am in constant "sweet pains" and dilemmas because i like all the detectors the same.
From time to time i tend to favorize certain model which is my current working machine at that moment; but generally i do like them all.
Sometimes i cant decide.
That's the beauty of this hobby i guess?

[Nupi]

@ivconic

......"Generally it is VERY BAD move to start new business with hot prices."......

Yes, but what are hot prices?
Where you compare it with.
Are not the prices of the competitors?
You must have comparative material to be able to say what the average price is then you can make out what is possibly cheap or expensive. Of course, you should also compare the price with quality.

Then the example of Minelab, 10.000 is absurd for me.
Why? I compare the GPX7000 with the GTX 5000 and I do not think the large price difference is worth. It is the double !!!
I have not the 7000 so my judgment I formed only from watching videos and reading, so I must admit I do not know all of the GPX7000.
To come back to the hot "prices" , what price would be for you acceptable for the Manta and "not hot"? I ask only indicative price because we do not know how the Manta really is but what we can see so far.

[Qiaozhi]

According to their website, the project has no short or medium term commercial outcome. The project is non-profit making.
This appears to be a group of amateurs who are solely interested in developing a pulse induction metal detector for themselves that can compete with high-end commercial detectors. I doubt you will see this detector made available to a wider market any time soon.

[Nupi]

I am disappointed that there are so few good videos appearing from the detector.
In general, are rarely seen good videos of DIY detectors also not from Geotech,
occasionally an air test that's all.

[ivconic]

@ivconic

......"Generally it is VERY BAD move to start new business with hot prices."......

Yes, but what are hot prices?
Where you compare it with.
Are not the prices of the competitors?
You must have comparative material to be able to say what the average price is then you can make out what is possibly cheap or expensive. Of course, you should also compare the price with quality.

Then the example of Minelab, 10.000 is absurd for me.
Why? I compare the GPX7000 with the GTX 5000 and I do not think the large price difference is worth. It is the double !!!
I have not the 7000 so my judgment I formed only from watching videos and reading, so I must admit I do not know all of the GPX7000.
To come back to the hot "prices" , what price would be for you acceptable for the Manta and "not hot"? I ask only indicative price because we do not know how the Manta really is but what we can see so far.

It is tough to talk abstract. I can talk and always be wrong, because i am not in skin of someone who is actually trying to start such business.
From very moderate experiences in these matters; i can only make wild assumptions... and again be completely wrong.
First do calculate overall costs for production; from "greenfield" to final product which is ready for market. Than add taxes and side expenses, traders margins etc...
Than calculate the value of intellectual property (this is toughest). At the end try to properly categorize your product and see the common prices in that category and range.
And than you will get rough value for the price.
$10 000 for GPZ 7000 is way more than absurd for me too. I guess they are playing on the card of exclusivity, luxury... whatever.
By directly shooting on the psychology of certain group of wealthy people, people whose main goal is prestige and certainly they can afford that prestige and of course they will pay for it, no matter the costs.
By the same logic some other brands and models from other kind of industries are sold to the very same kind of people; Maserati, Lamborghini, Rolls-Royce, Bulgari, Rolex etc...etc...
And those are upper-end products strictly aimed to very narrow markets and small group of people in the world.
I guess Minelab is having the ambition to overgrow the status of ordinary manufacturer of metal detectors and become sort of status icon in its class. Esoteric, snobbery... you name it.
Fact is that their product still has a use value of a similar product from the price range up to $2000... most probably, few bucks more or less (i bet for much less!).
But point is in prestige. Also in human weakness and the pursuit of snobbery, characteristics and particularities, that there is something rare and expensive which is inaccessible to others.
By buying a very rare and expensive items; man feels subconsciously more valuable than the surroundings. This phenomena is deeply rooted in human psychology.
Modern marketing strategists have gone that far to deal with elementary human psychology and put it in the service of their interests, improve better sales, achieving higher prices and exacerbate the desire among consumers to buy the product and have it by any cost.
In last decade it is indicative that Minelab changed marketing approach from roots and took completely different course than one from the past.
They are striving for ambitions. I would not waste no more words on them, i will not be their customer anyway.
But this story is also good to take into account when planing such enterprise. It is good to know consumers psychology and weakness!
So price can be any... proper marketing will take care to justify it at the end.
Conclusion; money is not in production: money is in marketing!

[Nupi]

What else can I say, you are a mind reader.
I had it not better be described than you did. Excellent.

[daverave]

It is tough to talk abstract. I can talk and always be wrong, because i am not in skin of someone who is actually trying to start such business.
From very moderate experiences in these matters; i can only make wild assumptions... and again be completely wrong.
First do calculate overall costs for production; from "greenfield" to final product which is ready for market. Than add taxes and side expenses, traders margins etc...
Than calculate the value of intellectual property (this is toughest). At the end try to properly categorize your product and see the common prices in that category and range.
And than you will get rough value for the price.
$10 000 for GPZ 7000 is way more than absurd for me too. I guess they are playing on the card of exclusivity, luxury... whatever.
By directly shooting on the psychology of certain group of wealthy people, people whose main goal is prestige and certainly they can afford that prestige and of course they will pay for it, no matter the costs.
By the same logic some other brands and models from other kind of industries are sold to the very same kind of people; Maserati, Lamborghini, Rolls-Royce, Bulgari, Rolex etc...etc...
And those are upper-end products strictly aimed to very narrow markets and small group of people in the world.
I guess Minelab is having the ambition to overgrow the status of ordinary manufacturer of metal detectors and become sort of status icon in its class. Esoteric, snobbery... you name it.
Fact is that their product still has a use value of a similar product from the price range up to $2000... most probably, few bucks more or less (i bet for much less!).
But point is in prestige. Also in human weakness and the pursuit of snobbery, characteristics and particularities, that there is something rare and expensive which is inaccessible to others.
By buying a very rare and expensive items; man feels subconsciously more valuable than the surroundings. This phenomena is deeply rooted in human psychology.
Modern marketing strategists have gone that far to deal with elementary human psychology and put it in the service of their interests, improve better sales, achieving higher prices and exacerbate the desire among consumers to buy the product and have it by any cost.
In last decade it is indicative that Minelab changed marketing approach from roots and took completely different course than one from the past.
They are striving for ambitions. I would not waste no more words on them, i will not be their customer anyway.
But this story is also good to take into account when planing such enterprise. It is good to know consumers psychology and weakness!
So price can be any... proper marketing will take care to justify it at the end.
Conclusion; money is not in production: money is in marketing!

i think you have summed it up exactly !!!! where minelab are concerned they use statements like...vflex....dvt....mps....bbs...and other names....but what does it all add up too ??? its all marketing....cause maybe other cheaper brands can do more or less the same things as these expensive detectors...at a fraction of the cost...and some other well established brands are made to look inferior to these all bangs and whistles machines.

[ivconic]

i think you have summed it up exactly !!!! where minelab are concerned they use statements like...vflex....dvt....mps....bbs...and other names....but what does it all add up too ??? its all marketing....cause maybe other cheaper brands can do more or less the same things as these expensive detectors...at a fraction of the cost...and some other well established brands are made to look inferior to these all bangs and whistles machines.

Yes exactly. Few years back we had same situation with GPX5000 model. "Special new technology", hot price, lot of claims, lot of video demonstrations. In time it faded from public focus.
I had several chances to see it in action. Not bad at all, but nothing special too. From what i saw while working with it and testing it; i did not see justification for it's also very hot price.
And yes you are absolutely right; in 95% of cases many much cheaper machines will have same success on the field as much more expensive ones.
GPX500... maybe because it is especially designed for nugget hunting; maybe it will beat up the competition only in such cases.
Even than; is it enough reason for such price? Seriously doubt in that. It's only the prestige.
So, yesterday it was GPX5000, today is GPZ7000 and tomorrow God knows what?
I don't want this to be misunderstood as spitting contest on Minelab's account, not at all, it's their decision what they will do by what prices.
On other hand we had Nokta and OKM with few lunatic devices, priced twice as much and yet completely useless, while Minelab's devices are all usable and completely alright in that criteria.
But Minelab's case is very indicative and illustrative as example in this topic, where we analyze serious, workable and usable products.
And for the Minelab's benefit; you can't place hot price if product is not crafted under highest quality standards, which Minelab's products certainly are 100%.
So, first step to achieve good price is to produce and fabricate under higher possible quality standards. High quality material and high quality crafting and fabrication.
Second step is use value... or value of use. Detector must have at least decent performances typical for it's class and category.
And than comes the "intrigue", marketing, "special powers", video demonstrations, special claims...

[daverave]

i use to own several minelab machines some time ago and although the electronics were good quality the plastic construction left a lot to be desired...cheap plastic enclosures and battery cases like you get in many toys....very heavy machines and coils...but i saw that makes like tesoro and whites and fisher were of a much better build quality in comparision...i cannot believe why a person wou ld buy a minelab gpz 7000 at about £8500 to use in the UK for normal use...its crazy !!!! as stated its all marketing to get naive public to part with big bucks.

[Thomas]

I have this stick, it's called a witching stick and what ever you rub on the side of the stick, it will shake and point towards the same type of stuff.
You have to make sure that the sun is at your back, hold it parallel to the ground, but not to high or to low, and don't make any sudden turns. Of course it does take practice
to get everything working just right. Because you're a member of geo-tech. I'll let you have it for a good price, the special one has nuggets all ready mounted on the side for a little extra fee.
you have to hurry, only one or two left.