Disclosure of Firms; Lorenz , ……

[michael]

Hi everybody.
Happy new year. I wish best things for all of you.

Due to an important real story that we encountered I felt it’s my moral task to inform you about it. maybe shed some lights on the fact.
One friend who lives in Austria decided to prepare one Lorenze Deepmax Z1 metal detector. At first he went to Austria Lorenz representative asked for a primary test to see if it’s satisfying or not. They tested one Z1 which seemed be second-hand. With double 1.5m frame could detect an ordinary shovel near 3 meters in air. He requested the Z1 which had tested but they never accepted and told him: “ you should take from those new ones we can’t sell this one this is our rule and,,, blah blah blah…” after opening a new one pack he insisted on testing just similar to the first one. Unbelievably saw it can detect the same shovel not more than 1 meter. However tried, could never detect similar to first Z1. So he gave up buying and this caused an argue between them ………
This friend went to Netherland and there they behaved exactly similar to Austria representative.
After disappointing of these he called to Lorenz main firm in Hanover- Germany and told them all the story with Austria and Netherland. They had told him: “ Don’t worry, come here we will satisfy you and will give you what you want”
After going to Hanover they behaved worse. They had told him: “ you should at first pay device cost and buy it then take it to your own places for test , if is faulty we will survey that and blah blah……” this also made another argue there.
So he entirely gave up buying any of Lorenz devices.

An important conclusion can be this: Situation About Lorenz fake devices is much worse than what we had heard before. Previously we thought Chinese make fake ones, but now we are somehow sure Lorenz itself is origin of making and distributing fake devices. Why? 2 answers comes to mind:
1- selling such devices have mush more benefit for them
2- Maybe this gossip : “Lorenz has been bankrupted” is a fact i.e. this Lorenz is not the same first genuine Lorenz and other guys who are deceitful manage it.
you can personally check about reality of this news. call them and ask ...... put here your results.

[Funfinder]

Where's the problem?!

Visiting a resaler, telling him that their is a wish to test and prove it if the in air test
values are the same as written in the charts, pdfs or on the websites.
Such a person even can get a better price for such a demonstration-detector as for a new one.

btw. Austria has 2 different representatives and one for shure will sell directly the
demonstration detector, and with: "this detector is used but has still full warranty".
http://www.metaldetectors.de/uk/authorised-reseller.htm

I think that involved person has got a wrong impression about the maximum depth.

First the shovel was detected at 3meters and then only a bit more than 1meter.
That's pretty unbelievable - btw. you forget to give us the exact metal-size of this thing!

And now you wanna tell us that the Lorenz company personally or its resalers would be involved
directly in some fake, scam or wrong cheap chinese replacement deal!
Where are your proves for such heavy insults?!

The Lorenz Z1 is no wonder machine, thats for shure!

read this thread:
http://www.geotech1.com/forums/showt...possible/page3
posts #60 to #63 and watch the youtube clip. But the depth is shurely not that good if the coil is really moving.

btw. if there would exists such "fake Lorenz detectors" on the market which idea is pretty catched from far away
there must be easy to find differences in product quality, PCB layout, used components and much more!

Before you start here a big witch-hunt show us proven and clear pictures of those product differences and other
hard evidence or you even could get sued by Lorenz and its resalers for damaging their good reputation!

[Orbit]

With us you said ...
bald Every hair bothers ! shovel to three meters bla bla bla
buy excavator Lorenz is one very serious company some not good it is not excavator

[michael]

Where's the problem?!

Visiting a resaler, telling him that their is a wish to test and prove it if the in air test
values are the same as written in the charts, pdfs or on the websites.
Such a person even can get a better price for such a demonstration-detector as for a new one.

btw. Austria has 2 different representatives and one for shure will sell directly the
demonstration detector, and with: "this detector is used but has still full warranty".
http://www.metaldetectors.de/uk/authorised-reseller.htm

I think that involved person has got a wrong impression about the maximum depth.

First the shovel was detected at 3meters and then only a bit more than 1meter.
That's pretty unbelievable - btw. you forget to give us the exact metal-size of this thing!

And now you wanna tell us that the Lorenz company personally or its resalers would be involved
directly in some fake, scam or wrong cheap chinese replacement deal!
Where are your proves for such heavy insults?!

The Lorenz Z1 is no wonder machine, thats for shure!

read this thread:
http://www.geotech1.com/forums/showt...possible/page3
posts #60 to #63 and watch the youtube clip. But the depth is shurely not that good if the coil is really moving.

btw. if there would exists such "fake Lorenz detectors" on the market which idea is pretty catched from far away
there must be easy to find differences in product quality, PCB layout, used components and much more!

Before you start here a big witch-hunt show us proven and clear pictures of those product differences and other
hard evidence or you even could get sued by Lorenz and its resalers for damaging their good reputation!

Hi Funfinder,
Thank you, but It seems you didn’t understand exactly what I mentioned. When Lorenz staffs show and test one thing but insist on selling you another one which never works like first one and refuse of selling the original thing, what is this called? Except to swindling? Now you are talking of suing me by Lorenz? What or who should be sued is the Lorenz deceitful.
And in movie you referred, Ok they have one working original Z1 not fake. Now their test manner failure or misleading is another thing.
The main purpose of putting this is to inform all people about what's going in Germany producers of metal detectors. next time I will write about another Germany firm(Electron) which similar to Lorenz claims are one of best MDs makers..........
About sue; just for notice should tell that another swindler Germany firm; KTS is being sued by my friend. cos had sold him non-working device with great propaganda.

[Funfinder]

Of course I did understand EXACTLY what you mentioned, but I think it doesn't work that way!

1. The clear facts, data, proofs, details etc. are missing.
2. Insulting the resalers, too (= cooperators of the whole scam?!)
3. How, where, why, when, how good, with what persons etc. those tests (shovel at 3m....) have been made?
4. "Lorenz has been bankrupted" and now they have to sell super cheap chinese clones of its own developed products?!


The main point is:
You or/and your friend bought some expensive or even overpriced product that didn't match the producers or resalers describtion.
Thats nothing new in metal-detector-business but it also is caused by differences from in-air "depth" and buried in mineralized soil.

Now what? How huge is the difference is the first question!

10% or 200% as with those shovel?

btw. your friend should not sue KTS which was in my memory always a reliable working company - but OKM !!!
This is the real problem of Germany with their magnetic-electrostatic-bionic- gold from 1000km mega-devices!


The first point of course is:
Where ends your personal limit of tolerance!?
If the detector is 10% less deep as the producers tells and claims - or if its 30% and beyond?!

But I doubt they use a special super circuit-detector for demonstrations - some sort of "trojan horse"
that has something different inside as the rest of the same looking detector for deceiving the
"test interested customers" because such tactics doesn't work for long.

It starts already with the first unsatisfied buyer because it is not happy with the told or test-shown
depths and its own experience.

And it would be like a conspiracy, because each resaler in each country would must get one
of those "special-test-show-detectors" which has a special mark and is not for sale but for
the usual customer he has enough "bad fraud products".

And exactly that is what you want to make us think or claim here!

btw. I need to know what Lorenz resaler of Austria was involved, because there exists two of them.
And one of them works EXTREMLY cautious, serious and professional.
From there you get only well reputated and high quality detectors including great user support.


For me it looks like that either you or your friend don't have known about the huge differences
of P.I. in air with static, not moving coil (raise of "click-frequency" when metal reaches the EM-field)
compared to P.I. detection in soil (all the time changing sound level output).

Why you are so eager to buy such P.I. detectors at all - do you think those are better than
Induction Balance or what?! They are not, this stuff has a miserable metal-discrimination,
it outputs "undifferent" crazymaking noise-signals all the time and it can't detect cavity!


And of course Lorenz can sue you if you have no hard evidence!
1. You need to document with video etc. when and where and what persons have shown that a
shovel of what size has been detected at 3meters. Was it the shovel of an excavator or of a spade?
2. You need at least one person with a Lorenz Z1 that shows the bad results you are claiming.
With this piece of evidence you can prove that it is: a fake from China etc. or a cheap version
directly from Lorenz which fails the given depth-values by - well perhaps - at least more than 30%.

If the shovel difference was 3m to barely more than 1m it fails for ca. 220% which of course would
be either a case for return or warranty or for fraud. But you have to have clear facts, and not:

"I saw some youtube videoclip with 3m for a shovel and when I bought it the depth was just 1m".


I am on your side, my friend, because I hate it too if those MD-companies with their often overpriced
products and their "helpers" tell the treasure-hunters wrong depths etc. - I'm even one of the fighters
against all those idiotical LRL-scamers, together with Carl, Qiaozhi, WM6 and some more -
but the whole issue has to be built up on a very serious and "provable" level like a crime-case!

People can claim and write what they want on the internet and it proves nothing.
It is in your own interest - for geting your money back or to get the product that really
offers the shown features - that you provide hard facts info like as if it would be in front of court!

Clear data and reliable, reprovable information.
If you can provide it, everything will be fine and you'll succeed with your demands. Good luck.

[michael]

Hi.
Thank you Funfinder for this long post.
But my main purpose of putting this thread was just for clarification/divulging.
For people who don’t know well about these deceitful firms and only have heard of them.
This is a moral task. Maybe a person wants to search for Lorenz comes and confronts here.
The resaler in Austria was the nuggets ( http://www.nuggets.at/).
About operating with MDs, I have been working long time with PIs my friend no, but realizing workability of a device and cheating doesn’t need to especial experience.

Why looking for PI, is because of good experiences with PIs and know many people who have found many precious things by PIs, but Induction balances, have seen many people are very unsatisfied that never found any serious target with them. I personally was eyewitness for a Geohunter , very slow, weak and heavy device which never could detect in ground but after that with our PI found some things there ,…… of course could show some cavities, but in MDing was weak. And the most important in Thing is targeting metals not cavities.
Good luck for you too.

[Funfinder]

What you've written doesn't seems to bring us any further to "solved results"
but I think two very important points are always: experience and border sensitivity.

An example: Hold or sweep a little coin directly in the middle of a 45cm coil
and you can get a signal from 35cm.
In reality this will not happen - if your lucky you will detect it at 20cm with such coil
because the middle of the coil isn't always directly over the finds and there are
other factors that reduce the depth.

And experience means that someone really knows the complete range of detection-signals
extremly good so its possible to search at highest sensitivity with max. depth.


Personally I think the main fraud is creating "exclusive resaler connections" and monopols
where they can determine 3x higher prices as it would be fair for such electronic stuff.

A bluRay-player costs 50 bucks and a Garrett Ace 250 over 200 for those few components.
This reminds me on Dawson City where the food started to costs 5x more than in other cities!
Its "mining the miners" and nothing else or as you said: a question of moral or simple: greed!


But I also have to warn you:
Without any exact experience and hard facts you simply just can't accuse companies or resalers
on such a "heavy level".
Its clear that the Lorenz Z1's ultra high price is just a bad joke but no-one has to buy it!
And there exists of course possibilities of testing exactly the same detector that you buy afterwards.

btw. nuggets.at was absolutly the wrong answer!
Already in 2009 it was possible to buy Nokta Golden King and Marko Group Jeohunter from there
and those detectors are absolutly not quote: "very slow, weak and never could detect in ground".

But I'm tired to explain the pro and cons of certain detectors now, use the model and P.I. or
whatever you like but don't spread false claims here again.

btw. you still answered not my question to tell here hard facts and evidence.
It doesn't work this way. So far we have to believe that what you are saying is the truth
but after your new statements about nuggets.at and the Jeohunter it starts to become harder and
harder to take all this stuff from you serious at all.

Why don't you go to the police or to a lawyer and tell them your problems?
The lawyer will cost you some money but you wanna be the winner in this case so
what else do you want to do? Writing in every MD-forum on the internet what big scamers
Lorenz and its representatives are?!

Provide us hard evidence and don't evade it with "other topics distraction tries" !
Or what are your real intentions: "Fight anti-moral with anti-moral"?
Brandmarking the evil Lorenz company on the internet so everyone is warned about them?
With your so far arguments and not existing proves you will have a hard time and only
very few, naive and uncritical people will believe you with your "private-war".

This whole thematic reminds me on the offtopic "Clash of the titans" thread where some
bulgarian MD-producers claim how bad are the detectors of the competitors.

If your friend is from Austria he should first contact nuggets.at by mail to discuss this
whole thing out and find a good solution. He can repeat this test or what's with this idea:

If its really the truth and correct what you are claiming (or your friends experiences) -
he just has to send some pal to nuggets or he uses by itself some fake beard or whatever
and then the whole "fake-test" can start again.

Same as it was originally! A "newly" ;-) interested treasure-hunter wants to see personally
how good works the Lorenz Z-1. Of course if its true what you and your friend claim,
nuggets.at again would use the "not for sale-special quality Z1" for the demonstration
and the shovel would be detectable again at 3meters!

Or do you think this "method" was just a big exception - a fake-show for your guy only
and noone else?!


My friend, the main goal is that both parties are satisfied!
The customer with a working as shown detector and the producers and resalers who get their loan for it.
If it would be as you claimed the resalers can close very fast their shops if they sell "worthless crap".

The places where this was happening from what you're talking are in Middle-Europe and not at some bazar at Marrakesh
where they offer "original" antiques but for real those are cheap chinese fakes.


If you are so enthusiastic about P.I. detectors, why don't built your own?
Or test all the available ones and chose the one you prefer the most?!
Do you know the Pulse Star? Not good enough or what?

Check out the Golden Mask Deep Hunter from slomobi (Bulgaria):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilzB...yK7w10u8VXYdLg
with nice 75cm coil

And don't you think by yourself that the efford to use a "real" Lorenz Z1 just for demonstration
but selling just "cheap fake products" would be far too high and risky?!


Sorry, but the most people here will just "smile" about what you have written in your first post here,
because its such highly unprobable, so extremly unbelievable and if it would be true, it would have
been discovered already since a long long time !!
And if you let them wait forever for useful evidence and detailed info it will not improve your position.

Does your friend believes he's the victim of some complot to "steal" 5500 Euros from him
and give him in return some worthless metal-detector?!


But lets start all over with that shovel-test again:
As I told you already: Go personally or send some friend of your friend to one of those Lorenz representatives
and he also should get that "fantastic" and "I must buy this super detector" 3m result again!
Or do you think they are warned now and have stopped this practise? Shurely not,
because it could reduce the profits.

And what will you do now or your friend?! Geting the money back?
Because the shown in-air test from the resaler was far away from the in-air test at home?
I hope you have good and reprovable arguments in front of court.


btw. we have here some very interesting P.I. depth charts incl. Lorenz Z1:

http://www.geotech1.com/forums/showt...077#post199077

and here are the depths from the DeepHunter with its different coils so you can compare:
http://www.geotech1.com/forums/attac...8&d=1416658911

and those are other detectors:
http://www.geotech1.com/forums/attac...5&d=1350609434

Have fun.

[Orbit]

There's something !
if the detector example lorenz ,pulse star 2




actually detector that keeps the earth by means of reset and if shovel catches on example 3 meters you can not in addition to the coil put a piece of metal however reset sometimes it will not even know,for that matter will detector reduce the depth This does not mean that the customer but that is not familiar adjustment detectors and I think that's the problem,from personal experienceselling their pi detectors with this type of Reset automation ,put close to the coil shovel and press the reset detectorthe same shovel...not detect not half a meter ,but the problem is the man rather than in the detector.
pi detectors for professionals and not for amateurs !

[Funfinder]

Thats right, Orbit.

Often people with not enough experience wanna have directly the most sensitive, deepest
and best detectors and then they start to wonder why everything doesn't work as good as it should or can.

Especially deep-hunting with large coils requires a different way of thinking incl. other methods of working.

[bernte_one]

i think if you try to contact user PiTec can clear something whats going on on german market with pi deepseekers