Truth about MF and SF

[tragac]

You are right and I was thinking what to do....
It's not duplicated tread I only put similar question here because it was without answer couple days.....and I need this answer probably you can understand me...

[Davor]

If only I can guess where exactly your peat/clay is... The worst terrain in your wider surrounding is Dinaric Alps region with Terra Rossa red clays mixed with rocks. The NATO team described these terrains (near Obrovac) as "uncooperative". I can attest that a single frequency IB can do good on these terrains with somewhat wider GB settings.
As for our brothers and sisters in OZ, they are struggling with viscous soils that are rich in maghemite. This mineral is formed from magnetite in presence of bio material and heat, e.g. bush fire. For that reason the maghemite-rich soil forms layers, and those are occasionally broken, hence the nightmarish GB. What viscous soil does is a contribution that is somewhat beyond silver, but it can be GB-ed even with a decent VLF, and their problem is the broken soil structure that does not allow for a simple GB solution.
The other truth about our OZ friends is that they are easily duped to buy incredibly expensive machines at $10 000++. For that particular reason I can not consider such people as amateurs willing to contribute much on this forum. Many other fora that gather these people are spiteful places full of envy and malice. There are a few contributing members from OZ here, and you don't want to know the level of hate they receive on such fora.
PI is a norm in OZ, and I can only guess for historical reasons, as the many problems it solves, that many it brings along. There is also a "marketing leader" that quenches any desire of technological advance by anyone else. The main advantage of PI is that it is literally deaf to fast tau responses, which is a disadvantage with small gold. To compensate you must be able to sample much faster... one problem solved and one new problem created.
Gold fields in OZ are a big business that surpasses all your wild imagination, so just get used to comments from those people. Most of us do not have such problems as they have, and the marketing leader's devices usually do not get stellar marks on any real world tests here. Or in fact anywhere else but OZ.

[Funfinder]

Very well said!
It would be nice if you could explain more about the OZ soil and how it reacts
on IB and PI and how high is its magnetical, saturational and reflectional potential
compared to gold.



Concerning some treasure-hunters there: why they use 30cm coils for 2mm nuggets?

If the land with goldnuggets has the potential that there are also 1cm nuggets
within an area of 333 x 333 meters (100.000 squaremeters) I even would search
with a 40cm coil. If not, I only would use a 15cm coil!

In other words: With a fast reacting lightweight IB-motion-disc-detector
somebody can still brute force huge gold-areas an get alot surface-near nuggets.

But of course not with a very low responding PI machine where the sweeps have
to be done very slowly and the disc doesn't work good.

Ehm, Davor - fora is the plural of forum, right? Aka forums or fori?
Can you give me a link of those, I wanna see whats going on there.

Gold, gem-stones, greed, envy, illusional-treasure-fever and proudness all over the world
throws formerly lovely and innocent people into devestating mind-settings.

Seen from the animals the early treasure-hunting was those for food or building-materials !!!
But meanwhile alot think they can buy their complete paradise with money or with
found natural- (also trees and wood etc.) or ground-treasures!

They wanna impress women to get their love and sex and a prospering future
while they forget the whole social and cooperational thing.
Btw. women who are just looking for rich men to rip them off or having a "rich"
life with them (no matter how old those man are already) are also called: "Gold Diggers".
It's not really that funny for those who fell victim to such "oh so pretty" girls or: "wallet-diggers"


But the brain of alot persons really is messed up by commercials, status-symbol-thinking and
comparing theirselves with the "richdom of others". At all costs by destroying nature, of course!
For one gram of gold they destroy 10 square kilometers of old woods and so far untouched forests!

[Davor]

If you are up for some quality self torture, try www.finders.com.au

Regarding OZ soils, I don't know them first hand. I picked up the necessary details on the go, and I developed a spice model of viscous soil to learn more about it. You can find it here: http://www.geotech1.com/forums/showthread.php?19872

[Funfinder]

Thx for the links and I hope whats written there will be not to cruel and nasty.
We also must understand the special psychological conditions of many such people -
fever also usually is the term for some kind of illness, so it may be with gold-fever, too.

What me wonders why those guys are not bored to death always just finding the same stuff.
In their minds might be fantasies of wealth, pleasure and all the great stuff they can
buy with a huge amount of gold but this also is possible with some other good paid and exciting job!

Finding all kind of different stuff with metal-detectors incl. treasures or antiques of course
is much more fascinating than being freaky addicted to always the same yellow metal grains.
Gold also can tell no big stories while rare finds can have a huge history and have alot to say.


Anyway - either the down-under-soil is penetratable or not.
Which mainly is a question of coil-size, sensitivity, constrastful signals and nuggets-size.



btw. this quotes from the Makro Racer's manual is interesting to read - concerning special soils:


Tracking also is advanced ground-balance because it shows if the mineralization changes:

While TRACKING is active, the device can initally produce a loud signal when it detects a
different ground structure (for instance a mineral rock) or a target. In this case, swing the search
coil over the spot where the device produces the signal. If the sound remains the same and the
device shows an ID, it's possibly a target. If the sound attenuates too much or is lost after a few
swings, it means that the device has produced a signal for the different ground structure or a
stone.
It is recommended that you use TRACKING in the All Metal mode and not in the discrimination
modes (Two Tone, Three Tone and Beach) for the best performance.
TRACKING is suitable for use in areas where different soil structures are present within the same
land or in fields where mineral rocks are scattered widely apart. If you use Ground Trackng in
areas where hot rocks are intensely present, the device may not be able to eliminate these high
mineralzed rocks or you may miss the smaller or deeper metals.


Salt water and alkali grounds are significantly conductive due to high ionization and cause
effects similar to that of iron in detectors. These effects may make it impossible to search for
metals with a standard detector. Existence of iron elimination feature in a detector can improve
the situation but may not be sufficient. RACER’s Beach mode eliminates such effects and ground noise.


Some typical ground types are as follows:

00-25 Wet salt water or wet alkali soils
25-50 Wet salt water and wet alkali soils covered with dry layers
50-70 Regular, low-quality soils
70-90 Highly magnetic soils, magnetite or maghemite and similar highly mineralized soils, black sand

My experience is that at very loamy soil only a GB level at 10-20 will eleminate all ground-signals
but in such case the Racer also discriminates little low level or very small noble metal pieces.
However this compromise is still better than get wrong signals at very high sensitivity settings at
such locations.

[Davor]

I'm not familiar with Racer, except that I received a tip not to discard it as yet another detector.
I'd even go as far to join WM6 in testing it if he is offered to test it.
From what you say, I can conclude it has a GB separate from discrimination, which is very good. Classic detectors use the same phase for all metal and GB, and for that reason these detectors may produce meaningful response only with GB close to 90°. If you extend GB on such detectors, you get iron and magnetite from the 3rd quadrant sounding as a coloured metal.
The solution is really simple, but for some reason the classic IB detectors do not employ it.
I believe such setup may do well on very difficult soils.

[WM6]

I'd even go as far to join WM6 in testing it if he is offered to test it.

You are welcome Davor.
Macro Racer not landed on my testing plant yet, but there are announcement that next improved Racer model will come out soon (seems more gold dedicated). Hope this one will have a route in my direction.

[Funfinder]

One very important factor is speed if it comes to ground-balance.

If a PI detector with already very low recovery speed hits critically mineralized ground
its not really existing search-speed will extremly slow down again until it takes ages to search an area.

I see it also with the Racer - there is no more false ground signals at border mineraliziation ground level
if I sweep the coil very very slowly.
And so far I had its tracking feature always default set at "off", so I have to experiment first
how good it really improves sensitivity and ground-distortion-elimination.

But what I see is: if I sweep the large and deep penetrating 40cm coil with really very high speed
and I have set the GB to around 10 to 20 I almost get no ground fail signals at loamy soil at all
which is already a very good result.


@ WM6:
If you would be really interested you just have to drive some km to the north and you can
test the actual Racer for free. And if you test it only with the standard 30cm coil this test
will be not complete and also if it lasts just a few hours at one and the same location.

I have tested it now for alot more than 100 hours under all kind of different situations
but I also have to confess that listening to the newest hits while hunting and using the
vibration-feature is sooo much more fun than "decoding" all the weakest signals
so that I for shure miss alot detectable stuff but I don't care at the moment.

Meanwhile I have even found only in 2015 already 50% more cannonballs as in 2010
when the whole region was full and the most distant cannonball I have found
this summer already was 3km away from the search-areas where I have started!
But I also found 15mm small coins or medallions in the middle of the woods with the
40cm coil - it's not the case that I would ignore all the smaller stuff while hunting.

However its great if you saw already some announcements about the updated version
because it shows that the new Makro-Nokta corporation really is willing to improve it
and fix some serious stuff like water-protection, stability etc. Where you saw that info?

And I hope this "gold-dedicated" doesn't means that the Racer will be focussed to smaller coils
because the opposite should be the case! We really need some super lightweight 65cm coil
first to reach all the very deep and bigger stuff because that 40cm coil is absolutly too
small for this task - even if it detects a bicycle from 2m in air.

For example under usual search conditions it will detects an 8cm cannonball buried
50cm deep very good while "fast and careless - hunting" but if this ball would be
buried 80cm, in most cases someone would already walks over it without signal.

No wonder - when the 40cm coil already finds 1cm coins 15cm deep!
This is nice and fine and people should use the standard coil for this stuff
but covering huge areas and going very deep requires "heavier" equipment.