Minelab Manticore ? the oscillogram ( THE ROAR ) of the beast ?

[Riss]

It will be interesting to see what this beast emits - it is already on the marketUndoubtedly Minelab introduced quite a few innovations . However, I would not buy a detector from this brand (at least for now) . They do not meet many of the requirements of the European relic hunter . I have a friend who has lived for about 20 years in U.S.A. .He has similar requirements to mine . He told me - Americans love screen detectors if it's colorful - great - when they hear a signal , they start rubbing the search head over it , change programs , they look VDI display , to understand what it is and how deep it is ? When they dig it, I've already dug 5 signals...I laughed a lot. The first owners comparative tests started . I am pessimistic to see the oscillograms - as always everything must be shrouded in a mysterious mist...

[Skippy]

It will be interesting, I agree. Will it be identical to the Equinox selection ? Might it be simpler - just Equinox 'Beach' mode ( also Vanquish mode ) ?
One really obvious change they can make is to vary the frequencies, in particular offering lower frequencies. They can simply keep the existing ratios ( 3 : 7 : 15 ) , so the software is effectively unchanged, just shift things lower, so it produces: 4.5k / 10.5k / 22.5k, for example. XP have taken this method choice for their Deus2.

"I would not buy a detector from this brand (at least for now) . They do not meet many of the requirements of the European relic hunter"

I agree if you're considering the Manticore; the visual aids are of minimal benefit. But you should seriously take a look at the new model Equinox 700/900. They seem to be just evolutions of the 600/800, with most of the flaws corrected, without any radical changes. As such, they should be very good for European hunting. Plus, they are likely to get a few software updates over the next few years, that give a few more small improvements.

[MartinB]

My old faithful Deus 1 finally gave up after 15 years or so. I looked at the Manticore and then looked a little deeper. ML claim that it has 50% more power. More power than what? A Go-Find or a jet engine. They don't say. It is heavy. The wireless system is "low latency" blue tooth; quite slow and not ideal for pin pointing targets. The graphics are a gimmick. Why waste time waiting for a detector to decide what the target might be - who is in charge here, you or the detector. If you get a signal dig it; that is the only 100% way of finding out what the target is.
Yes, I bought a Deus 2 because it does what I want it to.

[detectormods]

Minelab have come a long way since i used the Goldseekers 15000 so many years ago, i have had all their pulse induction detectors except for the GPX6000, their P.I detectors do work much better than other companies offerings but i do feel that they are on par in the coin relic market, whats with the Manticore name, what does it mean? I can think of some funny things,

[Riss]

About 20 years ago the searchers in my region they worked in groups of 5 to 20 peoples. A friend shared with me the following strange phenomenon -anyone who starts working with a detector Minelab (then they worked with Sovereign , Excalibur , Explorer XS , SE ... ) begins to work away from the group - from 20 to 50 meters !The explanation is not that it disturbs the other detectors - interference from BBS is negligible beyond 8-10 meters. Also the owners of Minelab they become quite silent - they talk little, behave mysteriously ...I also noticed this phenomenon . I thought - Minelab is something like a religion?

[Skippy]

"The wireless system is "low latency" Bluetooth; quite slow and not ideal for pin-pointing targets"

It appears the "Bluetooth LE ( low energy )" link is capable of a lower latency time than their proprietry Wi-Stream system ( eg. the WM-08 module on the Equinox ). This is why the new Equinox 700/900 machines only have Bluetooth LE, as Wi-Stream and APTX-LL both become redundant options. This then saves a little on manufacturing cost, as a second codec chip would be needed otherwise.

It's true that the 'zero latency' of wired headphones is hard to beat, but generally it's thought that 40 millisecs or less latency is something that can easily be ignored, or adapted to. After all, most machines have an inherent motion-mode latency of near 100 millisecs ( Fisher quote 78 msec for several of their F models ) , and you learn to adjust to that. I suspect the most likely way you would observe the small ( 20-40ms ) delay is if you regularly switch between wired phones and LL wireless ones.

There is currently limited availability of Bluetooth LE headphones & 'receiver dongle' devices, which is one disadvantage.

[Carl-NC]

AptX-LL is a Qualcomm-proprietary technology. The new Bluetooth "LE Audio" standard is designed to be as good or better. I've tested the Nordic nRF5340, the only chip I can find that supports LE Audio and the one used in the Manticore; it works quite well. Right now the only thing on the market supporting LE Audio are earbuds, but headphone are surely coming as the technology is adopted. AptX-LL will likely go away in a few years so it's a smart move to go ahead and jump on LE Audio.

[searchbear]

I'd be sceptical about the claimed higher power. To get a noticable improvement in depth, that would have to be a lot more power. I'd rather bet on improved digitization and signal processing.

[EL NINO]

The most significant advantage of the TX boost by 50% is ... theoretically greater range, greater sensitivity to the smallest targets and what is most important ... also theoretically a better signal/noise ratio ... so the detector has better prerequisites for better detection ... but also in practice/ my experience with Whites spectra V3/ ..


Also, in another case, the use of a higher TX power will allow you to use, for example, lower Rx Gain values... and thus also enable better detection... which is stronger under the influence of EMI,, or complicated field conditions...


it is stupid to increase TX Power and RX Gain at the same time - in a situation where it is not necessary.../ you can only do this in very light field conditions/


Garrett/Whites Goldmaster 24K with 50% stronger TX is an example that it works in practice....


Increasing the value of TX performance .... I think it is one good direction in which the new detection technique will go .... if we want to get depth or separation - better performance ...

....and I think it also gives better conditions for better software signal processing ....

So .....Manticore has good prerequisites to become a powerful detector...

[Riss]

The above is undoubtedly true, but let's clarify :
- to increase detection depth 25 % , TX power should increase 4 times (unfortunately, this is not true for the depth of discrimination)- this is what real experiments in the soil show .
- let's not forget that the increased TX power also requires good temperature stability of the search head balance .

[Skippy]

"but let's clarify: to increase detection depth 25 % , TX power should increase 4 times"
I'm going to challenge that. I think you mean 'TX amplitude should increase 4 times'
( I make it 3.8 times if you're assuming simple inverse 6th power drop-off, or 3.4 times if you work with a more realistic inverse 5.5th power )

In previous threads elsewhere about the Manticore's "50% more power" , I assumed coil power to be largely resistive loss, so this may represent 22% more coil voltage ( eg. 12V instead of 10V ) , giving about 4% more 'depth' if that was all that was changed.
So the benefits are related to EMI tolerance, not raw depth gains. Any measureable real gains will be down to the receive side of the machine.

[MartinB]

"but let's clarify: to increase detection depth 25 % , TX power should increase 4 times"
I'm going to challenge that. I think you mean 'TX amplitude should increase 4 times'
( I make it 3.8 times if you're assuming simple inverse 6th power drop-off, or 3.4 times if you work with a more realistic inverse 5.5th power )

In previous threads elsewhere about the Manticore's "50% more power" , I assumed coil power to be largely resistive loss, so this may represent 22% more coil voltage ( eg. 12V instead of 10V ) , giving about 4% more 'depth' if that was all that was changed.
So the benefits are related to EMI tolerance, not raw depth gains. Any measureable real gains will be down to the receive side of the machine.

Assuming a detection depth of 300mm the additional 4% makes it 312mm. Is this a real benefit?

[Skippy]

As stated, the benefits are those of EMI resistance. To explain:
If you transmitted with 22% more amplitude, and matched that with a receive circuit with 82% of the previous gain, you would have a detector that performed identically. But, importantly, it would pick up 82% of the electrical interference [ cellphones, WiFi, power cables, computers, electrical machinery, CB radios/walkie-talkies, lightning, animal fences etc etc]. This small improvement in signal-to-noise ratio ( signal is the same, noise is reduced to 82% ) could allow you turn up you sensitivity a point or two; it could give more stable ID numbers if you're doing the US thing of distinguishing one type of worthless 1 cent coin from another type; it could make your hunt less audibly tiring, making it more enjoyable.

[Riss]

You are right Skippy - it is better to consider TX amplitudes . Since the TX coil drivers of modern detectors work in switching mode - losses are mainly in TX coil resistance . I noticed that if we double the supply voltage of Fisher 1266 for example , gain in depth is about 25% ( max ). The power consumption from the DC source increases by 4 times . With an additional board I doubled the amplitude of the Whites DFX . The improvement varies slightly for different sized objects .EMI resistance is by default . Accumulated practice shows that things are more pleasant with higher power and reasonable gain reduction . Also- a big coil ,, wants “ a big power .

[Carl-NC]

The White's V3 has transmit boost which increases the TX voltage from 10V to 30V. It adds about an inch of depth or 10%.

It doesn't make much sense to talk about "transmit power" because most TX coils (including multifrequency) have a resonant cap whereby the TX energy is recycled. The TX "power" is therefore due to resistive losses; if resistive losses are zero the TX power is zero, no matter how much TX current or voltage there is. So the Manticore could have "50% more power" simply by increasing the coil resistance. I'm sure that's not the case and ML is really talking about an increase in TX voltage or current or both. A possible scenario is that the TX supply was increased by 22% resulting in a TX current increase of 22%, and when you multiply them (V*I) the "power" increase is 50%. The real depth increase is about 3.5%, but the buyer only sees "50% more!"