Minelab Manticore ? the oscillogram ( THE ROAR ) of the beast ?

[MartinB]

Exactly what I am driving at. ML don't go into detail in their advertising blurb and in my opinion are hiding the true facts. As you say, the average buyer only sees "50% more power"

[ivconic]

Of course, I believe that this is the majority case, at the beginning of getting to know the MD problematics;
logically it was imposed that the higher the transmission power - the greater the "depths".
During tests in the air, as well as in uniform soil (improperly prepared testing bed); this can also be shown to be true.
But it is actually an introduction to further misconceptions.
Only when searching on real terrain; all the flaws are immediately visible. In the form of instability, false signals, etc.
ML is still a serious enough company and I personally do not believe that they have sunk to such a low level,
to deal with such "Youtube" kinda claims.
And again, I often notice, reading their "white" (and other colored) papers, that their explanations are not fully adapted to all users,
especially laymen.
The "intelligent" and "high-minded" way of writing those papers is also a form of fraud.
If your ultimate goal is the consumer, you don't know how literate and informed he is (but he has money);
then it is fair to write the paper so that it is fully understood by everyone.
But no, you write your paper "high-minded" and very "professional", knowing in advance that only 2% of users will understand it properly.
98% of users will accept those papers out of awe as something sacred, accurate and not subject to checks and questions.
Who has ever read one of Candy's papers; he knows how much bull**** there is.
"Highly intelligent" bull****, of course.
But all that falls apart once you take the machine in your hands and go to the field that you have been visiting for 20-30 years with various detectors.
For someone who has already paid an enormous price... that's an afterthought.
For someone who took that detector just for trial and testing; it is a fortunate circumstance, that he sees the truth without it costing him.
Years of testing various detectors, making various DIYs, etc., have shown that insisting on too much radiated power is very wrong.
The gain is almost insignificant, but therefore many difficult compromises.
To me, it is always more interesting to design the RX frontend so that it is as sensitive as possible, with the best possible S/N ratio. Quick to respond, quick to recover.
Wide enough to give sufficient b/w and data resolution from the RX coil.
One simple and probably inadequate example: Deus and two coils.
One is 22cm and the other is 34x28cm.
Same TX power. Same settings, same program.
The 22cm coil doesn't see a Roman silver denarius at 15cm in the ground even a bit.
There is no clear response, just a short murmur.
And then I put the 34x28cm coil and get a clear and unequivocal response with the correct VDI number.
This is not a unique case. That you took it as a coincidence.
This is something that is repeated many times, from site to site and soil to soil.
ML "shot" its trump cards. I don't think they have anything new, noteworthy, to offer.
"Manticore" is a grossly inadequate term. Hence the revolt in reading this topic.
Here it is now 22:00, 2 more hours and we enter the new year 2023.
In that spirit, all I could wish for myself; I wish the rest of you! Cheers!

[MartinB]

Totally agree with you on the subject of Deus coils. I have experienced exactly the same.
I hope 2023 brings you good fortune.

[ivconic]

KBOOOOM !!!
(a half kilo firecracker)
Happy New Year 2023! I wish you all a lot of health first, then peace on the whole planet and finally a lot of money!
May all your realistic wishes come true!

[Voyager]

Feliz Ano Novo para todos !.

[detectormods]

I was watching a few Manticore videos on youtube, this fellow was finding plenty of nails with it, coming up as 72 to 78 should be high conductivity.
https://youtu.be/qSD_9VCkXkE

[ivconic]

I was watching a few Manticore videos on youtube, this fellow was finding plenty of nails with it, coming up as 72 to 78 should be high conductivity.
https://youtu.be/qSD_9VCkXkE

...But all that falls apart once you take the machine in your hands and go to the field that you have been visiting for 20-30 years with various detectors...

How much money was paid for that detector? How many??
And at the end it again shows the iron as "colored"... and sounds good and high VDI number!
Except that there is a delay... but you should really pay attention to that.
And then one wonders about those high tech ingenious solutions...
Everything sounds so good and smart on white paper!
I don't want to start this year with cynical comments...

Why delay?
It is digital sampling with (probably) heavy filters. The target is very difficult and problematic.
The signal given by the target is complex and it takes a lot of processing time to process such a signal.
But despite everything; the machine fails to process it correctly. Hence the delay and wrong indications.
For the sake of objectivity; I will say that I believe that even Deus would not behave without difficulties.
I have similar experiences on such targets.
But Deus in such cases provides variable audio that is characteristic, easy to remember and later you always recognize such a finding first with the help of sound.
But the VDI at Deus is more accurate. Either it is more in the minus and the number is below 20, or, if the object is larger; it goes over 90.
So with Deus, I generally have no dilemma on such difficult targets.

[EL NINO]

Each detector has its pluses and minuses,,,,and that's why it's good to have 2-3 really good ..detectors for detection..... what do I do..


The operation of the detector in the field where there is a lot of iron.....is very important in certain situations.../how the detector can discriminate different types of iron.../ "in certain situations, not the most important...


my last detection with ORX on a white hf coil at 31 khz confirms the fact that higher frequency data evidence on a certain type of iron is a strong indication of a non-ferrous signal...

simply higher frequencies of 30_40 khz have a certain higher sensitivity to a certain type of iron... it is due to better separation properties on certainly conductive targets.., and almost all multi-frequency detectors now use these frequencies for multi-frequency work..

simply higher frequencies of 30_40 khz have a certain higher sensitivity to a certain type of iron... it is due to better separation properties on certainly conductive targets.., and almost all multi-frequency detectors now use these frequencies for multi-frequency work..


But let's go back to Manticore and its 50% stronger TX,,, I think that Bost 50% TX,, will manifest itself more significantly than only a 4-5% increase in depth / in All metal / ... because here it is more about better processing of the TX signal using RX in dynamic mode.../discrimination mode/...which needs more data from RX than the All metal channel ...

the second thing .. balancing the coil for a stronger TX is more difficult... but it is more difficult especially with smaller size coils... and 11" and larger coils are no longer so difficult for correct IB balancing..

[Skippy]

Quote:"balancing the coil for a stronger TX is more difficult"
Regardless whether the TX is 'boosted' , or there is greater RX gain ( absolutely anywhere from number of RX coil turns, coil pre-amp gain, ADC scaling, software gain ) , having more raw sensitivity will place more demands on the coil. This means more precise zero nulling; greater mechanical rigidity; greater thermal stability.
'NASA Tom Dankowski' stated that the coil has the extra bracing ribs for improved stiffness and stability.

I suspect Manticore coil will be electrically very similar to the Equinox, perhaps identical. Only the additional bells & whistles, like an accelerometer to give coil-sweep direction info, and an embedded micro to deal with the data link will be changed. Remember there is an unused signal wire inside the Equinox cable. This wire can be used to talk to the micro: reading accelerometer data; switching in different pre-amp gain settings; maybe additional functions.

[detectormods]

It is an easy fix, add a learn button to store the target data, once dug you can program the detector to ignore the target profile, not so difficult to do with a comparison of adc output to a numbers table, this would be good when there is junk like nails.

[searchbear]

I would tend to agree. The 50% is done marketing mumbo jumbo. For example, I could imagine that the 50% more power are actually a few more dB in SNR or dynamic range in the (I suspect) used audio codec. Does anybody actually know if they used audio codecs in the Manticore? They do in the Vanquish..

[searchbear]

It is an easy fix, add a learn button to store the target data, once dug you can program the detector to ignore the target profile, not so difficult to do with a comparison of adc output to a numbers table, this would be good when there is junk like nails.

Unfortunately not. MD manufacturers are hiding the fact that there simply isn't enough information in the signal to make something like this possible. An Al pull tab in orientation X at depth Y can produce a signal that is indistinguishable from a silver object in orientation Z at depth A. Only completely different technology would enable this, like integrating a magnetometer or an array of receive coils etc. A signal that simply gives an amplitude and phase at a certain frequency just doesn't contain the information! We just need to be liberal in digging...

[Carl-NC]

It is an easy fix, add a learn button to store the target data, once dug you can program the detector to ignore the target profile, not so difficult to do with a comparison of adc output to a numbers table, this would be good when there is junk like nails.

This works for well-behaved eddy targets like coins, not so much for ferrous targets and especially not elongated ferrous targets like nails. The direction and tilt of a nail alters the response, even sweeping the nail directly under the center of the coil versus off-center alters the response. Steel bottle caps have the same issue.

[detectormods]

Maybe people are better off using pulse induction if the discrimination is limited, I had a target on an old SD2200 that had a ferrous discrimination function that only worked with a DD coil, I had a signal under a bush, the detector gave off the iron staccato sound, me thinks its junk, goes back after a couple of hours after getting no gold, dig out a 5.3 Oz nugget. Never used that discriminator ever again.

[ivconic]

Obviously, most of us here are very familiar with the problem. I wonder how the Fisher CX3D would perform on such targets.
Unfortunately, I had it for a very short time and could not test it on all possible terrain conditions and on all targets.
Why am I mentioning the Fisher CZ3D? Because it proved to be better than others on horse shoe type targets.
Carl... is it possible that CZ3D is being produced again? Maybe with some changes?
To reduce the total weight of the entire device, for example.