Why a discriminating PI?

[Paul]

By the way I would love to have one of Dave's Pulse Devil's in my closet.

I'm not going to be repetitive so I'll only reply that personally I'd much rather have any ML PI detector by a thousand light years. I'll take depth over any useless gizmo disc.

Paul

[Paul]

Talk about faulty premises. Pro's will dig everything, therefor, those who use disc. are not pros. How 'bout I turn it around... inexperienced detectorists dig everything.

Simply shows that you don't know what you're talking about.

See, the veiled insults can go the other way too.

No, simply means you're person ruled by emotions since my statement of "all professional detectorists dig everything" has nothing to do with insult.

There are a number of places I know of where someone can be thrown in jail for "digging everything",

Such fuzzy logic. You have no business detecting in places where you cannot dig.

...

Listen guy, no offense intended, but don't really have time for such fuzzy logic mentality. So I'll have to decline reading the rest of your post or any future posts. Sorry!

Paul

[Carl-NC]

So, who are the professional metal detectorists? I don't know any full-timers. I asked this about 8 years ago on one of the forums, and got no reply.

- Carl

[NC-Dave]

OK Let's Cut the Crap

OK Paul, enough is enough. Technology marches on. The Pulse Devil uses some new techniques which have never been seen on any other detector.

1, The Pulse Devil does not see magnetite.

2, I can set an iron mask control so that iron is nulled out while small nuggets can easily be detected.

3, The Pulse Devil goes deeper than Minelab's latest offering while being more stable when working in high ground mineralisation and not losing any targets due to their being close to the ground signal's decay curve. Unlike the Minelab the Pulse Devil is immune from 50 - 60Hz power line hum. You can use it right underneath high voltage lines.

4, It is highly unlikely that you will ever dig an aluminum disc with some other material stuck through it unless one were to perhaps detect in your neighborhood.

5, I am told that Nuclear Magnetic Resonance methods will not detect gold? I am going by what someone who works in that industry as an engineer recently told me.

OK, I have tested the Pulse Devil here in North Carolina over our bright orange, mineralized as hell volcanic clay. I have never once in thousands of targets dug a target that was iron when it was supposed to be non ferrous. The in ground discrimination is as accurate as any VLF can achieve in air.

I have dug a gold nugget which was right next to an iron bolt. I have witnesses for this as I was at Ganes Creek Alaska with a group when I dug it. I have also dug small coins next to large iron. Of course there is no detector that can identify the exact metal as lead bullets provide the same signal as gold nuggets. They can however identify most iron.

Ask the expert coin hunters in England if they would dig every target? I have detected in fields in the South of England where there were so many small pieces of iron that the detector sounded like a machine gun as you swung it in the all metal mode! To dig every target would mean digging every square inch of ground. Let's hear from some of our friends in England. They can tell you how much iron they have in their sites.

As it happens the Pulse Devil might even please you as you can switch it into it's all metal mode. Dave. * * *

[willy]

Fuzzy logic.

Paul, in regards to your reply: 1) Inverting your premise and your response both point out the inherent fault in your arguement. What a brilliant riposte you had (sarcasm); something along the lines of "I know you are but what am I". I suppose logical discourse and argument is not as widespread as I believed. 2) Ruled by emotions.. hmmm. refer to #1 above. As for insult; you really don't have a clue, do you? You made a statement that is all-encompassing without any real proof to back it up. It's like saying that all Muslims are terrorists. Talk about throwing the baby out with the bathwater. 3) Did I mention digging in places where I'm not allowed? No, and it points out your "fuzzy logic". There are public parks, inland public beaches, church yards, school yards, etc., where I'm allowed to dig (other people too), but not allowed to tear up the landscape in order to dig up every little bit of iron. Have you heard of such places? If not, there are a number of forums I can direct you to where they discuss such radical concepts and (GASP!!) many have even detected in such locations! ...Willy

[Paul]

So, who are the professional metal detectorists? I don't know any full-timers. I asked this about 8 years ago on one of the forums, and got no reply.

- Carl

Carl,
I don't feel comfortable plotting names on a public forum. If you so wish I could PM you some names as long as you keep it confidential.

Trust me, they dig everything.

Paul

[ma330]

data

Hi to all:

Please give to me data for bandido II u max 1. Deal depth detect example ::this circuit detecting a coin what depth??.2. Discriminant metal .exampel: gold & iron. 3. Constancy circuit For ground Affect example: salt or salt water or Caverns..

Please anyone can send for me one photo from board finished bandido umax . I want see Smithereens electronic on board.

Tank you. Good byyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

[ma330]

data

hi paul:

Please give to me data for bandido II u max 1. Deal depth detect example ::this circuit detecting a coin what depth??.2. Discriminant metal .exampel: gold & iron. 3. Constancy circuit For ground Affect example: salt or salt water or Caverns..

Please if you can send for me one photo from board finished bandido umax . I want see Smithereens electronic on board.

Tank you. Good byyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

[Paul]

Dave,

OK Paul, enough is enough.

Why, because I'm skeptical of your claims so far because I want hard core scientific on the field statistics from you?

1, The Pulse Devil does not see magnetite.

OK, but I never said it did.

2, I can set an iron mask control so that iron is nulled out while small nuggets can easily be detected.

What exactly do you call an iron mask? It is theoretically impossible to generate an external Electromagnetic field in 3D space without the magnetic component. That is understood in curl mathematics. You can create a two dimensional plane that is void but you move a pico meter out of the plane and you're in a magnetic field. That's nothing new though.

4, It is highly unlikely that you will ever dig an aluminum disc with some other material stuck through it unless one were to perhaps detect in your neighborhood.

I want to hear you admit what this thread started out being, which is that I can trick any PI every time? That includes your Pulse Devil. BTW, I did limit my statements to just aluminum. It could be tin, some good pure gold or silver, or coins, etc.

5, I am told that Nuclear Magnetic Resonance methods will not detect gold? I am going by what someone who works in that industry as an engineer recently told me.

There are very few atoms that do not, but gold is definitely one that does. What this person might have meant was exactly what I stated in a previous post here, which is NMR is not a viable means to detect gold at any appreciable distance with present technology. The sample rate would take far too long.

OK, I have tested the Pulse Devil here in North Carolina over our bright orange, mineralized as hell volcanic clay. I have never once in thousands of targets dug a target that was iron when it was supposed to be non ferrous. The in ground discrimination is as accurate as any VLF can achieve in air.

I clearly said it is possible to achieve high probability. So far no commercial product has proven it. Furthermore, I keep clarifying time after time that you can achieve good probability, but the machines can be tricked. You mentioned "thousands of targets." That provides little information. Rather, I would like to see tests where you dig everything and tell us how many were valuable targets and how many were junk targets and what the Pulse Devils accuracy was. Example, I found 800 junk targets and 30 good targets. The Pulse Devil was 98% accurate with the junk targets and 73% accurate at with good targets.


According to some of your sentences in this post it seems evident that you acknowledge your Pulse Devil can be tricked. Are you admitting that? ... because some of the people here are upset with me for even insinuating such a thought, lol.

Ask the expert coin hunters in England if they would dig every target? I have detected in fields in the South of England where there were so many small pieces of iron that the detector sounded like a machine gun as you swung it in the all metal mode!

Where you using a ML GP3500?

To dig every target would mean digging every square inch of ground.

As far as I know Australia has the worst ground and guess what the full-timers use over there? ... Minelab GPs!


Paul

[Unregistered]

As for insult; you really don't have a clue, do you?

Read your first reply to me. It even contains the work bullsh*t. Come on guy.

You made a statement that is all-encompassing without any real proof to back it up. It's like saying that all Muslims are terrorists.

You should be more specific. I backed up my claim to PI disc. I clearly stated that ADR is unavailable technology. Come on guy.

Did I mention digging in places where I'm not allowed? No, and it points out your "fuzzy logic".

You did indeed. You clearly said you can go to jail for digging all targets. I never said that you suggested people dig everywhere. Can you see the difference?

There are public parks, inland public beaches, church yards, school yards, etc., where I'm allowed to dig (other people too), but not allowed to tear up the landscape in order to dig up every little bit of iron.

Fuzzy logic again. Refill your holes. Never heard a place that limits the amount of holes you can dig, lol. Do you think you're grasping at straws to save face? Can you see how you warp things to fit your reality and prove your point. Why would you even mention, "tear up the landscape" ? So you feel the need to exaggerate, kind of like some commercial, to make your illogical point?

Advise, be nice to nature. Fill your holes.

Paul

[ElectroNovice]

Paul you really indicate that us all that you really know bugger all about Pi detectors.
You have the hide to make statements about Pi detectors that you have not even tried! Have you tried the GS5 or the Pulse devil under field conditions? If you had you would realize just how stupid some of your statements are. For example you say that a Pi can be fooled if their is a target right next to magnetite or maghaematite.Well from testing in Oz over the very worst ground my friends there tell me that the GS5 does not produce ANY signal on these minerals. If you get a signal it is ALWAYS a conductive target. And for your info it leaves a Minelab for dead over extremely mineralized ground. Try using a ML over very highly magnetic Oz soils with a mono coil,they are hopeless! In contrast Erics GS5 easily handles such ground without fuss or any false signals with ANY monocoil! This is why very serious pros are going to switch to the GS5.If you knew anything about the decay curves of magnetic iron targets compared to non magnetic targets you would see how with the GS5b you can tell the with a high degree of accuracy(not 100% but not to far off) if the target is ferrous/ non ferrous.As you have become the forum Pi EM genius and the font of all em knowledge perhaps you could tell us all from your "knowledge" of the GS5 how it ground cancels and samples and how you would go about determining if the target is Fe/non Fe?

What you dont seem to realize is that if one digs every target then you can waste a huge amount of time if say out of 100 targets only one is gold or some other valuable. Any discrimination Pi technology which helps us to decide "which" targets are worth digging will make our detecting time far more productive and increase our finds of gold or other valuables.

I would also be interested in any papers that you have that show that high resolution, high sensitivity magnetometers used with skill can be "fooled" by Fe or non Fe targets.
ElectroNovice

My friend you need a reality check,you need to get out a do some more detecting(do you do very much?) over highly mineralized,junky areas with rock hard soils and then come back and tell us that you dug every target. Then repeat the exercise with a GS5 or the pulse devil and report back. Then my friend you might have some credibility!

[Paul]

Have you tried the GS5 or the Pulse devil under field conditions? If you had you would realize just how stupid some of your statements are. For example you say that a Pi can be fooled if their is a target right next to magnetite or maghaematite.Well from testing in Oz over the very worst ground my friends there tell me that the GS5 does not produce ANY signal on these minerals.

Your statement clear shows you don't even know what this discussion is about. It has nothing to do with magnetite discrimination. It's about the PI mistaking a piece of gold (metal) alongside magnetic material such as magnetite for a piece of iron.

Please, first catch up, read the thread, then come back and post.

If you get a signal it is ALWAYS a conductive target.

To anyone who understands the physics behind detectors clearly sees you don't know what you're talking about. Magnetic material also generates a signal. Magnetic material generates a magnetic moment caused by two things. 1. Mostly Intrinsic Electron Spin. 2. To a lesser degree, Orbital Spin.

Try using a ML over very highly magnetic Oz soils with a mono coil

Wow, I can't take this fuzzy logic. Guy, I'd recommend you use the oppropriate coil. Jonathan Porter is one of the best "Full Time" nugget shooters in Oz. He uses a ML GP, OK!

Listen, no offense, but I'm going to save my posting time for technical people who want to carry a real discussion. Sorry but I don't have time to read the rest of your post.

Peace,
Paul

[ElectroNovice]

Your statement clear shows you don't even know what this discussion is about. It has nothing to do with magnetite discrimination. It's about the PI mistaking a piece of gold (metal) alongside magnetic material such as magnetite for a piece of iron.

Please, first catch up, read the thread, then come back and post.



To anyone who understands the physics behind detectors clearly sees you don't know what you're talking about. Magnetic material also generates a signal. Magnetic material generates a magnetic moment caused by two things. 1. Mostly Intrinsic Electron Spin. 2. To a lesser degree, Orbital Spin.



Wow, I can't take this fuzzy logic. Guy, I'd recommend you use the oppropriate coil. Jonathan Porter is one of the best "Full Time" nugget shooters in Oz. He uses a ML GP, OK!

Listen, no offense, but I'm going to save my posting time for technical people who want to carry a real discussion. Sorry but I don't have time to read the rest of your post.

Peace,
Paul

Paul please answer my questions about the GS5 and the Pulse devil.And please tell us about your Pi detecting experience over very extreme magnetic ground.I use a gp like JP but i am painfully aware of the platforms shortcomings over very bad ground. You CANNOT use a mono coil with a GP over extreme ground in Vic oz but can EASILY with the GS5.Eric has WITHOUT doubt designed a GB circuit that is FAR SUPERIOR to any ML machine.I suggest that rather than waste our time on this forum you buy a plane ticket to Vic in OZ and go out in the field with your ML and then try the GS5 or the pulse devil and then come back and report to us.

Its good to see Eric join in this discussion because my friend paul he has forgotten more about EM and Pi than you obviously know! Perhaps you will come clean and tell the circuits, methods and technology that YOU have that will NEVER mistake a piece of gold (metal) alongside magnetic material such as magnetite for a piece of iron. Pehaps you tell us about your publications in peer revieved journals,patents and your qualifications other than being a know all.
ElectroNovice

[ElectroNovice]

quote:"Wow, I can't take this fuzzy logic. Guy, I'd recommend you use the oppropriate coil."

Paul if you use the appropiate coil (DD) on a ML over very severe magnetic ground you loose at least 15% in depth compared to a mono coil of the same diameter! And some of the ground in OZ is so bad that even a DD coil is very noisy! In vic oz they have big nuggets and the professionals there want more depth and few if any false signals.15-20% more depth over this very bad ground will result in more big nuggets being found as the prospectors know that there are big nuggets lying on basement that they just cannot reach with ML machines in virgin ground, where big nuggets have been previously found above basement. They have used ALL the appropiate coils in these areas but NOT monoloops as they are hopelessly noisy on ML Gps (in fact they often drive the GP into overload states as the Op-amps? saturate). So what i have said is not fuzzy logic,but a need which if you were an experienced prospector would understand.
ElectroNovice

[ElectroNovice]

Quore from Paul
'"To anyone who understands the physics behind detectors clearly sees you don't know what you're talking about. Magnetic material also generates a signal. Magnetic material generates a magnetic moment caused by two things. 1. Mostly Intrinsic Electron Spin. 2. To a lesser degree, Orbital Spin."

Yes Paul this is correct, but with the GS5b properly ground balanced you do NOT get any audible signals on magnetic minerals that "mimic" metallic conductive targets" the only exception I am informed is charcoal in some cases. With ML machines YOU DO get false mineral or ground signals that "mimic" conductive targets. With ML machines it takes a lot of experience to tell in many cases if the target is due to mineral or ground noises or a combination of metallic conductive target+ ground noises.You can waste hours digging dozens of false non metallic signals particularly if you are a beginner.So you have misquoted me or simply failed to understand the point I was making.So please read my posts more carefully in future and please go and get more on ground and in field experience in detecting ie get some practicle experience. Also please don't make nonsense statements about detectors that you have NEVER evaluated and/or have no idea of circuit topology etc.
ElectroNovice