Cache Test

[hung]

[quote=okantex;45836].all of us know the truth about gold.does not ionize.]/QUOTE]

All matter loses atoms as time goes by. Ions are modified atoms which loses or gain electrons. Gold is matter. It has atoms. It ionizes as well.

PS. Your drawing is pretty much correct regarding magnetic and electrical/electrostatic fields behavior.

[Tinkerer]

Scientific evidence

I should clarify my statements... we are talking about gold treasure, i.e., coins, jewelry, etc., that has been recently lost. Recently meaning 100's of days to 100's of years. We are talking about average natural conditions. We are not talking about millions of years, high pressures, or boiling hot temperatures.

Yes, I know gold has an oxide. Yes, I know gold will dissolve in aqua regia. Yes, I know seawater has dissolved gold in it, on the order of 6 nanograms per liter. This did not come from sunken treasure. BTW, gold in seawater is not in ionic form.

I will consider scientific evidence and experiments that show buried or sunken gold produces ionic fields. I would not accept Mineoro's word on this, as some of the answers they've given me on other questions were completely bogus.

I will consider scientific evidence and experiments that show buried silver and copper produce ionic fields which enhance detection, resulting in the popular "halo" theory. Tinkerer gave a very interesting explanation, which deserves investigation. I have strong doubts that any such ions would have any measurable effect on a metal detector, but it's worth looking at.

And so I started this very experiment about 2 weeks ago.

- Carl

I would like to clarify, that what I meant is that the detectable part is the enhanced conductivity created by the halo of metallic salts, not the ions themselves. This off course only works if the surrounding soil is different.
About a similar effect as the "Hole" effect.

An easy test of this theory, would be to search for a sweet spot of sandy, absorbing soil. Then poor a pint of salt solution into it. Will it respond to the metal detector?

I fully agree about proving all and every statement scientifically. This seems to be the big problem of dowsing rods, whatever fancy name they give it.
I think we would do humanity a great service if we could prove once and for all, with repeatable scientific testing, that dowsing rods do work.

Why has nobody taken Carls offer? And then there is the 1,000,000 Randy offer too. No need to go digging in scorching sun in snake infested bushland. Just show you can do it, scientifically.
The one that does it will be the hero of the century.

Tinkerer

[Tinkerer]

Jeepers keepers....But I have seen some very old gold objects for over 2000 years (alloy over 22) had a distinctive black layer on the surface!!!! could you please explain it for me???!!

You are right, my purpose was that gold is not immortal or unchangeable.
meanwhile for these action and interactions not necassary pass milion years. 10-20 years will do its' job.of course should be added it definitely depends on soil condition and components + weather
conditions had been there for years.(dry, rainy,...)

Most patina on old and natural gold can be explained by a natural "electroplating" process. Look up the Galvanic table of metals where you see gold on top and iron much further down. If you submerse both metals in an electrolite, like sea water or you can even use Coca Cola, then the less noble metal will dissolve and the ions migrate through the electrolite to the noble metal and coat it. It is a natural electrical process no need to add any external power.
You can stick one gold plate and one aluminium plate into sea water and you will get a potential over 2 Volt if I remember right.
Tinkerer

[Carl-NC]

Most patina on old and natural gold can be explained by a natural "electroplating" process. Look up the Galvanic table of metals where you see gold on top and iron much further down. If you submerse both metals in an electrolite, like sea water or you can even use Coca Cola, then the less noble metal will dissolve and the ions migrate through the electrolite to the noble metal and coat it. It is a natural electrical process no need to add any external power.
You can stick one gold plate and one aluminium plate into sea water and you will get a potential over 2 Volt if I remember right.
Tinkerer

I saw this years ago, when the treasure from the Central America was on display in San Fran. Gold coins and bars that were in contact with iron had been "stained" black by the iron migrating to the gold, but only where there was contact. Elsewhere, the gold was perfect, like the day it was made. None of it had been cleaned in any way.

- Carl

[Carl-NC]

Here is a photo I took of the Central America gold exhibit. It shows a variety of finds, from the bonded clump of coins in the rear, to the bright-as-new coins in the center. Nothing had been cleaned, this was how they were found. Note that some of the coins are partially bright, and partially stained. As I recall, all of this was from contact with iron, and could have been easily removed.

[goldfinder]

+ _ ions and Minero

hi
why are you trying to find new phenomens.all of us know the truth about gold.does not ionize.
but there is something about it.it is diamagnetic meterial.reflects the the energy what ever causes it.Even a detector or earth.
have a look at this page .it is the phenomen used in magnometers also.
http://www.thortech.org/thortech/spa...p.needle2.html
and minoro and zahori uses the same.but zahori and mineoro only takes the +
positive signal which comes out of earth.
I remembers Esteban's experience for a empty hole which burned 3130.
why here nobody else tells about this?
do mineoro effected by cavities.?
and magnetic flux of earth changes place to place according to resisitivity.is not it?

I asked specifically which ions does Mineror detect (i.e. + or -) and Esteban or Hung or one of Minero supporters said it was the negative ions. Now I see Okantex saying "+ positive signal. Now which is it? or is Okantex referring to the diamagnetic aspect of gold which repels magnetic fields like a Meisner effect? Lets ONCE AND FOR ALL GET THE FACTS STRAIGHT! Or are the Minero supporters giving out misleading information?

Please - clarify - anyone may answer but lets hear the truth.

Goldfinder

[okantex]

Hi goldfinder,
Escuse me but there is a misunderstood here.
while other friends here saying + and - ,they are talking about reality about atoms.and they are right.
and gold does not ionize but there is something that must not be forgotten.
it is tha t gold generally is not pure.becuse it is tooo soft element and neens copper or silver to make it usefull in public hands.and coppers ionize which can be detected according to their theory.

and lets talk about my + and -
these are theorical + and - s and mention earth's magnetic fluxes.if flux is over ground it is called + and if it is under ground it is called -
in magnometers with imagers , generally - is iron and showed in red
and cavities +and in blue. also gold + .
I think this is enough to solve your problem.

[hung]

As the package of ions spread in all directions, of all substances was too big and compact, it was difficult to separate just an "ion" or various "ions" of the same substance. So we come out with the idea of inventing a "Substance Classifier" , that is to say, a device which has the ability to "filter" just the "ion" or "ions" we needed to produce the phenomenom of "micro crash", "nano crash"or below. After years of researching and field experiences , it was born. It was invented not just as a classifier - "filter", but as a generator of positive "ions", receiver of negative "ions" in order to the short-circuit occur , and generator of electrostatic. Through electrostatic , the "ions" walk long distances , as if along an "invisible wire".

********

For all correct information, go DIRECTLY to the source. I know the subject because I studied it. You may wish to do the same.
http://www.mineoro.com/treasure/explanations.htm

[Unregistered]

Hung ,hung ,hung
give me just answer of this question
we have 2 plastic coated wire (like electric wires ,you use in dayly life)
can you make shortcut while it has coating on it
second question will follow your answer

[goldfinder]

Thanks to okantex and hung

Thanks guys (?). I surmized that is what okantex mean. Thanks for the clarification.

And Hung - that you for also clarifying the ion processing.
----
I have build a new ion and electrostatic (ES) field detector. This one seperates out the ion "crashes" and the longer period ES field changes. I did a take off from the Ivconic ES detector and hooked up a PIC uC to the output of the detection circuit. The PIC is a 12F675 which has an analog to digital converter. The PIC reads the incoming signal and "looks" for the high speed pulses which are the ions and puts out a signal to one of the digital ports that drives an earphone. A digital meter reads the slower ES field so between the two I got them both locked in.

Currently I am field testing the new detector. If all goes well I might put out a little kit for others to duplicate.

And who knows, maybe we can find some T with it.

Cheers - Goldfider

[goldfinder]

Yet another explaination of the "halo" effect

From the theoretical point of view that may be another explaination for the supposed halo effect. The diffusion of metals ionizing (those that would ionize) is of course a real effect. Iron, copper and some other metals do get reduced to ion states via acids and bases in the soils.

Now gold is another question. Might it be possible that gold, being a heavy big atom might be stimulated to shed electrons (-ions) when in the ground for longer periods due to the earth currents? Some earth currents get into the hundreds of volts albeit with pico and micro current levels. Tesla did extensive work on using the earth currents with one of his radio designs.

Now add this to the diamagnetic aspect of gold and we have two areas for possible detection instrumentation.

Just something I thot I throw out and let all you folks give a shot at it.

Goldfinder

[goldfinder]

Walking ions

Hung mentioned walking ions. I presume he is referring to the Mineoro site showing ions coming out of the ground and diffusing in a generally northern direction.

In physics it is well known that ions are deflected by a magnetic field. If ions come up out of the ground and into the air above a treasure cache then the moving ions will be deflected according to the well know righthand screw rule and head north as they will spiral around the magnetic field of the earth.

Also, the ions will also spread out in all directions away from the cache. The combination of these two effects could produce the general elliptical field of ions that Mineoro claims their detectors detect.


Goldfinder

[Tinkerer]

Challenge

I would like to go back to the original thread. About locating Carl’s cache. This cache is of recent origin and isolated from its surroundings.

I believe that so far no metal detector has been capable of finding it.

To find this specific cache, a metal detector would have to be capable to locate a single silver quarter at a distance of 24”. It would have to be capable to compensate for the ground effect as well as for the “hole” effects right next to it.


Question # 1 - Does such a detector exist?
# 2 – If it does not exist, could it be designed and built?
# 3 – Would there be buyers for such a detector?
# 4 - How much would a buyer be willing to pay for such a detector?

How about some answers on the above questions, as well as ideas and suggestions of how to resolve the design problems of such a detector?

I suggest that we open different threads for the different types of detectors. This here is the thread for traditional metal detectors.

LRL type detectors have their own forum. ( I also look in there) I believe it would be more constructive if we use the specific forum for each type of detector.

Tinkerer

[hung]

To find this specific cache, a metal detector would have to be capable to locate a single silver quarter at a distance of 24” It would have to be capable to compensate for the ground effect as well as for the “hole” effects right next to it.

With disturbed or undisturbed soil?
If the last opton is what you mean, then the target would have to reside in this hole for sometime to the soil to set.

Question # 1 - Does such a detector exist?
# 2 – If it does not exist, could it be designed and built?
# 3 – Would there be buyers for such a detector?
# 4 - How much would a buyer be willing to pay for such a detector?

I told a short sotry in the other forum how Damasio the owner of Mineoro built a system in the 50's which later he took to the 2 box detectors made by Mineoro.

Their 2 boxes are capable of side scan(lateral) a long time buried target, and depending on the size, it could go 120 meters or more I had never seen a 2 box act like that.
In 1969 Mr. Anisio Trelha found a gold cache at this distance. The detector show activity in the VU and you follow it.
They have the MP10 the top of line 2 box which my friend Celi happens to own. I saw him find a small ring which laid about half a meter , just looking to the VU . No sound.
If I could reach him soon, I could talk to him and ask to perform such a test and see what he gets.

[Carl-NC]

I would like to go back to the original thread. About locating Carl’s cache.

Thanks!

To find this specific cache, a metal detector would have to be capable to locate a single silver quarter at a distance of 24”.

I don't think so. A large mass of coins will give a stronger signal than a single coin, but not as strong as a single large mass. I made a duplicate cache of coins for air testing, and found that the Teknetics T2 would hit a single coin at 12", and the cache at 22". So it's close.

- Carl