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  • Respecting induced voltages;
    I have Troy Shadow X3 concentric coplanar coil here with me, also 20cm Fisher coil (came with 1266) also concentric coplanar...So, just to be sure how to null properly, i put those two on tests. As oscilator i used the one from Classic III and after that repeated with this one from TGSL.
    On both original coils i measured 0.000mV. Of course tested all possible combinations coil to oscillator. Although my oscilloscope is old and obsolete, i also measured with it...same..zero induction. So, this is not about multimeter accuracy or osciloscope accuracy at all. Respecting this i decided to try to null my coils as close as possible to zero induction. At the very beggining i beleived it is impossible. But thanks to Max's suggestion to put capacitor parallel to RX, finally i founded proper way how to null those to zero.
    As i posted above (although very confusing) first perform nulling without capacitor, just to close it enough not to induce much of voltage...as less as possible. In my case it was arround 0.009mV. Than add capacitor to raise a bit voltage, usually to 0.012 to 0.015mV. Than very carefully squeeze short parts of one of the coils and glue that spot with melted plastic.Holded until chill good (due relative movements). Usually when i hold it to chill, it reads 0.000mV. But than when i release it it raise a bit...to 0.001mV. So again, very,very carefully i press some of coils softly to make it to read 0.000mV, and again glue that spot with melted plastic. When chilled again release and wait minute or two to see if it will raise or not. Usually it takes 2 or 3 backs to achieve absolute zero (again, if multimeter is accurate...?)...When it is finished, than i fill it up with mentioned 2 component pitch and let to dry for some hours...And that is all...
    I can accept that multimeter is not absolute accurate, but this is as closest as possible (in my conditions) method to null coil so far.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Geo View Post
      Now litle things for Ivconic.
      Originally posted by Geo View Post
      When i tried to null a coil with oscilloscope and without resistor for load i had bigger indicator and some times i had selfoscillations (when the coil was very tight tune), so the results was bad. For me the best null with scope is to use one resistor parallel with coil (1..2k) and a resistor 5...10K in series with coil and scope. But... but ...but......... For me the problem is other. As i wrote before time sometimes i found that the best position for max sensitivity is a little open to the coil after a very good null. So if for example i have at the null a voltage of 5mv then the position that i have 10... 15mv was the best. I want to tell me your experience about this. Ivica or Max do you have tried the sensitivity of TGS with the coil not fine null? and if yes what do you saw.
      Best Regards



      Geo, i beleive that you are wrong. Yes, you will gain more depths on that way...BUT ONLY IN THE AIR! Remember that. Later when you take it outdoor it will produce to many false signals...it wont be possible to work with. Actually it is not nulled at all. It is a way off good balance and phase is to much shifted. I guess you have good oscilloscope. Try to follow phase shifts with that coil and you'll see. For example take a piece of clay and look for phase shifting on oscilloscope.
      For example, Minelab Sovereign GT is pretty average when testing in the air. Many handmades can easilly beat it in the air. But....when you put it on the soil it is "devil". Goes very deep! On the other side same handmades cant detect items even to 1/3 of GT's depth...Why is that so? Think about it...

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Qiaozhi View Post
        This is an interesting question, because Tesoro coils seem to be balanced with a 15mV residual signal, and they work fine.


        Now, this is strange? Also could be very interesting! Could be solution to my last problem i havent solved; mentioned ocassionall bleeps. Although those are very,very rare with my latest coils...Maybe Tesoro need coil not nulled absolute to zero? Is it possible?
        Also other explanation is possible; coil which gave you 15mV might be old,many times used and a bit damaged, unballanced due pass of time,moisture and relative movements so far....Could this be a case?
        I need to be perfectly sure about that! Can you measure another Tesoro coil?

        Comment


        • Maybe i have not right. I just learn.........
          But if the null is not absolut "zero" why to detect at more distance on air and not in the ground??? Phase shift...... maybe but it will work as Ground balance or as a little discriminator (why to lose the depth)???
          At the other side i can't make the absolut null. I play with all the D coil or with one turn or i wind 2... 8 small turns in the coil with positive or negative direction..... but i always have 5.... 10 mv output to the scope.
          I don't say that i am the right and you the wrong.... but as you now making a lot of coils, you can make a coil without good null (don't glue it good) and try it to the field so to be a good experience for all of us.
          Regards

          Comment


          • "5...10mV", is to high! I already made simillar coils in the past. Those were times when i made Classic III. That's why am i talking about good nulling. I had a lot of problems with CL3 and bad nulled coils. A lot of false signals on any kind of soil, everywhere. Totally unuseable.Couldnt distinguish among detection and false signal at all.
            Other side, yes i agree, coil can be useable even if it is not nulled to absolute zero. Up to 1mV it can be used with detector like TGS, cose TGS have very good soluted GEB&DISC stage so any eventual loss coming from coil can be easilly compensated inside apparatus. It is not special to null coils good, only need patience and good will...I already explained my method. Usually takes 20 minutes to null coil (due time needed to chill out melted plastic)...

            But Quiaozhi confused me with previous claim...!? Wait for his reply on this...

            Comment


            • Originally posted by ivconic View Post
              "...BTW what's total weight of your detector with DD255x137 ?... I notice gel-type that battery will be under the arm...."

              Yes, good question! This one ("katana") is arround 3kg's...heavy but very well balanced. It is kind of hard to work with it more than 40-50 minutes. I usually take short rest,5-10 minutes...It could be lighter a bit. I was thinking to mix this mass with something lighter and try to achive coil weight under 500gr.
              I'll experiment with this further.
              Hi,
              nice to know your potting stuff is not conductive... I think know I understand what is it... I saw a lot of times in hi insulation transformers and the like... thing used to keep flyback secondary turns well fixed and insulated by a thick layer... that thing is very good stuff for work like coils !

              About weight ... well... also mine is not so light... but now better than before...I'm around 1.65Kg at now... but considering the metal I've used (aluminium box+pole) it's not too much respect to commercial models like some fisher and also tesoro (e.g. Tejon). Unfortunately I had to use some old stuff from other (crap) detector and that added some more weight to my initial idea (1.3Kg maximum).
              I recovered some weight changing the lead-acid battery for a pack of 10 NiMh of 700mAh capacity. Detector run smooth also with that... even if I think that the battery drop of NiMh is not as good as lead-acid ... you can notice that after a few hours of working the audio tone decrease in amplitude a bit respect to initial charged state... but I can live with that and prefer saving +300gr from my arm! With lead-acid battery weight was about 1.980Kg about 2Kg... that I've found heavy for me in long search.

              Now I can sweep 1 hour without big problems... but then 2 hours it became a bit heavy... and after 3 is just pain on shoulder... but I also make always a rest/pause of 10 minutes after 90 min to 2 hours.

              If you wanna save some weight use NiMh like I've done... you can also save money if recover 10 of them from old cellphone batteries... cause you don't need hi-capacity for TGSL... just working ones with 600-700mAh capacity are more than enough for 15-20 hours of working.

              Kind regards,
              Max

              Comment


              • hi

                Hi,
                Max.
                Have you test your 12cm OO coil?
                I ask because I make one yesterday but cant get good results!\
                Less depth even compared with other coils I have made!
                I dont now where realy is my probleme,but I hardly can reach 25 cm with all I have made and try so far!
                Maybe my problem is that bad battery......or bad nulling...???

                Comment


                • Hi

                  One more thing I have try testing with different ithems but its look like my device can't dicriminate rusty horseshoes and etc. only some IRON ont all!
                  What could be the reason for this?\

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Qiaozhi View Post
                    This is an interesting question, because Tesoro coils seem to be balanced with a 15mV residual signal, and they work fine.
                    Hi,
                    ? no it isn't...at least on my original 9x8''. I've measured the same way with scope+capacitor and 1Kohm resistor and read something 3.5mVpp... at 10KHz.
                    That's the voltage level I get from it ... of course not perfect null but not 15mVpp.

                    What model are you referring at? The 8'' Polo brown coil ?
                    Or a DD widescan (e.g. the 10'' coil)?

                    I've just the 9x8'' spider so could not say about others... but mine is nulled near the level I've made my smaller DD22 and 8'' opencentre (I get less than 1mVpp with those).

                    I think that large DDs suffer of bigger "null" voltage cause of more critical overlap respect to smaller...so maybe a 10'' from tesoro could reach 15mVpp but I'm sure that couldn't be a great coil on performance side that way...too instability.

                    For my curiosity I've tested till 20mVpp 22cm coils and found that , as Ivconic reported, you can use it as a 1mVpp nulled coil in the air cause no big differences there... but putting that on the ground I get an hell of noise in easy soil... and cannot figure out from where... if soil... or some metal particles in soil or foil etc ...I gave up with it after few days...cause made another properly nulled worked perfect on same soil.

                    I think that most depends on GEB... if you can ground-balance very well (e.g. on BandidoII with external pot) you can also use a coil with 10-15mVpp but otherwise is almost impossible using that: on TGS that has fixed preset GEB it will be totally unuseful on 90% of soils...at least for me... so solution are
                    - build one with less out-null voltage
                    - change the trimpot with a multiturn/oneturn pot on panel for GEB

                    All the rest will not work.

                    Best regards,
                    Max

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by ivconic View Post
                      "5...10mV", is to high! I already made simillar coils in the past. Those were times when i made Classic III. That's why am i talking about good nulling. I had a lot of problems with CL3 and bad nulled coils. A lot of false signals on any kind of soil, everywhere. Totally unuseable.Couldnt distinguish among detection and false signal at all.
                      Other side, yes i agree, coil can be useable even if it is not nulled to absolute zero. Up to 1mV it can be used with detector like TGS, cose TGS have very good soluted GEB&DISC stage so any eventual loss coming from coil can be easilly compensated inside apparatus. It is not special to null coils good, only need patience and good will...I already explained my method. Usually takes 20 minutes to null coil (due time needed to chill out melted plastic)...

                      But Quiaozhi confused me with previous claim...!? Wait for his reply on this...
                      Hi Ivica.
                      10mv is to high and it is too low. We measure at the Rx coil and we give a signal at the Tx coil. So if you connect the Tx coil to the Anker SS60 transmitter (the output is about 140VP-P) then it is very dificult to take an output (Rx signal) of only 5...10 mv. So i think that it is better to have a standrd Tx signal so to can compare the null of any coil and with a standard method (multimeter.... oscilloscope.... parallel resistor... etc)
                      Regards

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by tiktak View Post
                        One more thing I have try testing with different ithems but its look like my device can't dicriminate rusty horseshoes and etc. only some IRON ont all!
                        What could be the reason for this?\
                        Hi,
                        about OO coils they are really hard to tune at best...so I'm not surprised you get it work but with less depth of e.g. DD.

                        Also I get good results ONLY on bandidoII-clone... that has modifications by me respect to original Tesoro's design. On TGS I cannot get good results with my "good" OO... and I'm still testing for something better e.g. alignment...so far with no real success.

                        About horseshoes...yes... Disc works just with small iron... ironwires...and other small trash like nails etc...

                        When you are near a large iron with your coil... the perturbations it introduces e.g. in fieldlines distribution in the space make you nulled config disappear and so the out-of-balance make your detector sound even if phase is far negative; phase at RX is also a function of target shape, dimensions, soil sorrounding it, orientation etc not only metal kind... so you'll get great phase variations respect to ideal one when a large thing of iron is near coil and that sums with the out-of-null you get from field distortion.

                        Happen with all VLF detectors expecially with large iron-stuff at few distance from coil bottom.

                        I can e.g. detect an big iron pole (height 2meters from +50cm away with TGS) : it's normal not having a TOTAL iron disc.

                        That's ok... you'll dig some horseshoes... fine... but keep attention at sound: you'll notice cracked sound with iron most of the times. Ear can distinguish trash from good target that way... but then you have to trust your ears.

                        Kind regards,
                        Max

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Geo View Post
                          Hi Ivica.
                          10mv is to high and it is too low. We measure at the Rx coil and we give a signal at the Tx coil. So if you connect the Tx coil to the Anker SS60 transmitter (the output is about 140VP-P) then it is very dificult to take an output (Rx signal) of only 5...10 mv. So i think that it is better to have a standrd Tx signal so to can compare the null of any coil and with a standard method (multimeter.... oscilloscope.... parallel resistor... etc)
                          Regards
                          Hi Geo,
                          absolutely right: I suggest we use a 10Vpp oscillator as reference for Rx nulling readings.

                          If I remember well the BandidoII osc is like this... but runs at 10KHz with standard coil...

                          So we must also consider a starndard frequency where to test RX response ?

                          I think that this isn't an absolute need... we can tune coil at 10KHz and then use it e.g. at 14 like in TGS... but will this introduce some additional variation ?

                          In theory not. If you consider that TGS mount exactly the same coils of e.g. Bandido there aren't problems tuning coil at 10KHz or at 14KHz... and then using them at different TX frequency.

                          But my guesses are related to the RX part... would a very good null at 10KHz be very good at 14KHz too ??? How e.g. resonance will play a role disturbing our results ?

                          Anyway... the solution could be using a modified TGS osc with controlled 10Vpp wave at TX... we need just to change voltage supply and remove voltage feedback for stabilization !

                          Kind regards,
                          Max

                          Comment


                          • "But my guesses are related to the RX part... would a very good null at 10KHz be very good at 14KHz too ??? How e.g. resonance will play a role disturbing our results ?"

                            Very good question! I dont think so. I noticed differences when tested coils with different oscillators. Classic III oscillator runs at 6.5KHz (my handmade) and testing with it showed some induction more than i expected...Later when tested wit TGSL...no induction.
                            I think i pictured this...but not awared of whole problematic so i rather not speak yet....dont want to talk rubbish here...Heh,heh,heh...

                            Regards!

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by ivconic View Post

                              Now, this is strange? Also could be very interesting! Could be solution to my last problem i havent solved; mentioned ocassionall bleeps. Although those are very,very rare with my latest coils...Maybe Tesoro need coil not nulled absolute to zero? Is it possible?
                              Also other explanation is possible; coil which gave you 15mV might be old,many times used and a bit damaged, unballanced due pass of time,moisture and relative movements so far....Could this be a case?
                              I need to be perfectly sure about that! Can you measure another Tesoro coil?
                              The Tesoro coil that I tested is a 9x8 web coil, and it's reasonably new. The residual voltage is actually 13mVpp. I also tested a Laser concentric coil (same as Cortes) and this is 100mVpp! Both of them work absolutely fine. Unfortunately I cannot test my 10" concentric coil, as a wire is currently broken in the plug. Just need to get enough enthusiasm to re-attach it.
                              I do not own a tesoro widescan DD coil.

                              Personally I think you're taking this zeroing thing too seriously. The only difference you're likely to notice, if the residual voltage is too high, is worse discrimination for deep targets.

                              I'm sure that statement is going to spark off some interesting discussions.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Qiaozhi View Post
                                The Tesoro coil that I tested is a 9x8 web coil, and it's reasonably new. The residual voltage is actually 13mVpp. I also tested a Laser concentric coil (same as Cortes) and this is 100mVpp! Both of them work absolutely fine. Unfortunately I cannot test my 10" concentric coil, as a wire is currently broken in the plug. Just need to get enough enthusiasm to re-attach it.
                                I do not own a tesoro widescan DD coil.

                                Personally I think you're taking this zeroing thing too seriously. The only difference you're likely to notice, if the residual voltage is too high, is worse discrimination for deep targets.

                                I'm sure that statement is going to spark off some interesting discussions.

                                Hah,hah,hah,hah,hah !!!!!! I KNEW IT!!!!!
                                Damn! Now i cant sleep whole night!


                                Also...now....NOTHING CLEAR TO ME!
                                I dont understand this at all!?

                                Quiaozhi, tell me than; how the heck i will achieve good, stabile GEB???
                                If this is not dependable of good coil design....well..????
                                And i thought i know something!?
                                Regards!

                                Comment

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