TESORO GOLDEN SABRE

[francisco2006]

DD Coils problems

hello everyone, finally got enameled 0.26 mm wire diameter and follow the general tutorial (TGSLCoil Making.pdf) IVCONIC to make the DD coils, and did 98 laps = TX and RX = 107 turns. I wrapped the two coils in the same direction (the two coils are equal), and put silver ribbon as Faraday and joined the wire at the End of the two coils, do not know if it is how you do it, why not shut up and not with the beepppp adjust anything. I think I explained well.

[satdaveuk]

Hi, Jerry.

Maybe you can verify my findings. By replacing the 470K resistors with 1M and using 10uF capacitors, you will almost double the gain of the detector. It will definitly make it more sensitive. But I found that the AM mode makes the TGSL difficult to keep quiet unless you are far away from sources of electrical noise.

Also, it changes the overall frequency response so that you may sweep the detector very slow and still get a good signal. Just be aware of the behavior differences and you should be fine. There was a post by Simon where he did a Spice simulation and confirmed this.
Don

Don your mode changing the two 470k for 1 megs, lovely job and still remains stable on the ground, certainly increased the sens of mine by at least 20-25% using tesro manufacture coil and home brew with no other kick backs, so your the man of the moment so to speak.
Saying that im still only getting 21-22cm solid sounds on a modern 2p air test and almost the same from the ground, though ive checked everything with a fine toothcomb and all reads as should do far as the manual says, so ive just etched another PCB and going to build another machine from scratch and see if theres any theres any improvement.
In the mean time if anyone here can think of something ive missed please let me know
Many thanks
Regards

[simonbaker]

Don your mode changing the two 470k for 1 megs, lovely job and still remains stable on the ground, certainly increased the sens of mine by at least 20-25% using tesro manufacture coil and home brew with no other kick backs, so your the man of the moment so to speak.
Saying that im still only getting 21-22cm solid sounds on a modern 2p air test and almost the same from the ground, though ive checked everything with a fine toothcomb and all reads as should do far as the manual says, so ive just etched another PCB and going to build another machine from scratch and see if theres any theres any improvement.
In the mean time if anyone here can think of something ive missed please let me know
Many thanks
Regards

Do you find backing off the ground balance setting increases your distance at all?

Also, if you have EMI in your workshop, it will probably be impossible to demonstrate the full depth. The TGS design is very noise sensitive, and the signal cuts out in the presence of noise. You would think it would just add noise, but instead it appears to kill weak signals, so only the stronger target signals can get through the final noise filter.

-SB

Regards,

-SB

[dfbowers]

Do you find backing off the ground balance setting increases your distance at all?

Also, if you have EMI in your workshop, it will probably be impossible to demonstrate the full depth. The TGS design is very noise sensitive, and the signal cuts out in the presence of noise. You would think it would just add noise, but instead it appears to kill weak signals, so only the stronger target signals can get through the final noise filter.

-SB

Regards,

-SB

Cutting back on the GB setting of mine makes a marked improvement as well, and the only way I know of to get a bit of extra detection range. The setting of my GB trimmer is different with ferrite as compared to actual ground conditions anyway (for the better).

As for the noise thing, I have been experimenting with larger coil size (in the basement). One day, I can detect coins at 40cm, the next day only 30cm. Nothing has changed!! (except the noise level).. Now I just need an oven big enough to form a 15" coil. Anyone have a "pizza" oven for sale?

Another idea I have been playing around with is a full differential front end, like what the guys have been experimenting with in the PI forum. Does anyone out there have any experiences with full differential front ends in IB detectors? I think that Mikebg has the right idea, but the coil geometery seems to be a deterrent.

Don

[satdaveuk]

Do you find backing off the ground balance setting increases your distance at all?

Also, if you have EMI in your workshop, it will probably be impossible to demonstrate the full depth. The TGS design is very noise sensitive, and the signal cuts out in the presence of noise. You would think it would just add noise, but instead it appears to kill weak signals, so only the stronger target signals can get through the final noise filter.

-SB

Regards,

-SB

Hi Simon
Thanks for your quick responce, These day all my tests are done out in the garden outside my workshop where I have a test bed with various metals/coins and also scatter on the surphase for various tests, far as air testing its also done outside wether permitting on a plastic table.
Your very correct when saying workshop tests are not much of a test for these machines, I learned from old the minelab multifrequency machines wont even work in workshop conditions they either constantly screech or nothing at all theres no in between , the whites 1v and DFX are not much better.
Cutting back on the ground balance does improve it but optium performance is with the control bang on in the middle.
Since I mounted the coil and control box to a stem I can turn the gain up three quarters and it works perfect detecting in real ground conditions, Disc spot on works as good if not better than any of my other detectors including the Quattro and the 1265x.
The only thing thats needed to improve is depth im so sure that if all things were right should be getting say 25-28cm in real soil conditions, the difference between air testing and ground detecting is about 1cm max which considering the iron content we have over here in are soils id say that side of things is near if not perfect.
And that what pushed me to start building a second machine because If can crack the problem working between two machines its going to help a big bunch of people on here, and Simon im determined to crack it if nobody beats me to it.
The biggest improvements to date are silverdogs latest mods with the 1 meg resistors and ivonics preset in the TX stage which gives more compatabilty when changing different coils, just gives the edge required.
So all is good apart from depth which judging by others on here, mine is lacking
Many thanks
Regards

[satdaveuk]

Cutting back on the GB setting of mine makes a marked improvement as well, and the only way I know of to get a bit of extra detection range. The setting of my GB trimmer is different with ferrite as compared to actual ground conditions anyway (for the better).

As for the noise thing, I have been experimenting with larger coil size (in the basement). One day, I can detect coins at 40cm, the next day only 30cm. Nothing has changed!! (except the noise level).. Now I just need an oven big enough to form a 15" coil. Anyone have a "pizza" oven for sale?

Another idea I have been playing around with is a full differential front end, like what the guys have been experimenting with in the PI forum. Does anyone out there have any experiences with full differential front ends in IB detectors? I think that Mikebg has the right idea, but the coil geometery seems to be a deterrent.

Don

Hi DON
For a matter of interest and guide lines what depth are you getting in real terms with your standard home brew coil and or the Tesro 8" round manufacture coil.
The reason why I ask is because between the 8" Tesro coil wired as Tesro design and my home brews built to spec wired either your wet grass way or Tesro configuration theres very little in it, so what are you getting in distance outside with air testing then in real terms on ground depth.
Because I dont think anyone is getting better than you on here so it will give me and everyone else on here a goal to go for.
My 21cm is either a english 2p or £1 coin, £2 coin 22cm a english modern 5 pence which is small and crap metal im getting 20cm, all sounds are solid beeps, if I counted the end chirps when going out of range you can add aprox 1-2cm.

Thanks in advance
Regards

[dfbowers]

Hi DON
For a matter of interest and guide lines what depth are you getting in real terms with your standard home brew coil and or the Tesro 8" round manufacture coil.
The reason why I ask is because between the 8" Tesro coil wired as Tesro design and my home brews built to spec wired either your wet grass way or Tesro configuration theres very little in it, so what are you getting in distance outside with air testing then in real terms on ground depth.
Because I dont think anyone is getting better than you on here so it will give me and everyone else on here a goal to go for.
My 21cm is either a english 2p or £1 coin, £2 coin 22cm a english modern 5 pence which is small and crap metal im getting 20cm, all sounds are solid beeps, if I counted the end chirps when going out of range you can add aprox 1-2cm.

Thanks in advance
Regards

I would say never worse than 30cm with a 9 or 10" coil. The 10" coil that I have been using I can max out at around 36cm (before I start to pick up noise) when it's late at night and everything in the house is turned off. Actual ground conditions cut detection range in half around where I live. Sometimes I hit a sandy area where I get surprised by digging a coin relatively deep - 10" or so.

With that being said, I made a coil for Stefano and he was getting about 25" on his TGSL. I had tested at 30cm before I sent it to him. ( I should have made a video just for reference and sent it to him).

I have one coil that's a fluke. I can detect a 1e at 40-45cm. Odd thing is, I GB to ferrite, accept anything non-ferrous but I cannot detect ferrous correctly in the AM mode!! The phasing is off somehow so the coil is not "right". It works fantasic out relic hunting though. Here it is set up on the "bleeding edge" Not to practical set up that way

Don http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KytiLKZ-ybc&list=UU2iY7v0Vr5rzuhKKOIoCBxg&index=10&feature =plcp

[simonbaker]

Hi Simon
Thanks for your quick responce, These day all my tests are done out in the garden outside my workshop where I have a test bed with various metals/coins and also scatter on the surphase for various tests, far as air testing its also done outside wether permitting on a plastic table.
Your very correct when saying workshop tests are not much of a test for these machines, I learned from old the minelab multifrequency machines wont even work in workshop conditions they either constantly screech or nothing at all theres no in between , the whites 1v and DFX are not much better.
Cutting back on the ground balance does improve it but optium performance is with the control bang on in the middle.
Since I mounted the coil and control box to a stem I can turn the gain up three quarters and it works perfect detecting in real ground conditions, Disc spot on works as good if not better than any of my other detectors including the Quattro and the 1265x.
The only thing thats needed to improve is depth im so sure that if all things were right should be getting say 25-28cm in real soil conditions, the difference between air testing and ground detecting is about 1cm max which considering the iron content we have over here in are soils id say that side of things is near if not perfect.
And that what pushed me to start building a second machine because If can crack the problem working between two machines its going to help a big bunch of people on here, and Simon im determined to crack it if nobody beats me to it.
The biggest improvements to date are silverdogs latest mods with the 1 meg resistors and ivonics preset in the TX stage which gives more compatabilty when changing different coils, just gives the edge required.
So all is good apart from depth which judging by others on here, mine is lacking
Many thanks
Regards

I'm sure you'll crack it with enough tries -- I'm still trying...

What do you use for coil shielding? People seem to be finding that conductive mylar works better than, say, foil.

-SB

[der_fisherman]

Don's Coil

I would say never worse than 30cm with a 9 or 10" coil. The 10" coil that I have been using I can max out at around 36cm (before I start to pick up noise) when it's late at night and everything in the house is turned off. Actual ground conditions cut detection range in half around where I live. Sometimes I hit a sandy area where I get surprised by digging a coin relatively deep - 10" or so.

With that being said, I made a coil for Stefano and he was getting about 25" on his TGSL. I had tested at 30cm before I sent it to him. ( I should have made a video just for reference and sent it to him).

I have one coil that's a fluke. I can detect a 1e at 40-45cm. Odd thing is, I GB to ferrite, accept anything non-ferrous but I cannot detect ferrous correctly in the AM mode!! The phasing is off somehow so the coil is not "right". It works fantasic out relic hunting though. Here it is set up on the "bleeding edge" Not to practical set up that way

Don http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KytiLKZ-ybc&list=UU2iY7v0Vr5rzuhKKOIoCBxg&index=10&feature =plcp

Can you look at the phase difference on a scope for us please? I personally find the fact that it ignores steel to be a good "failure" so to say......such a search depth, up against a garage door(?) with a steel rule alkongside.....wow....

Do you have an IGSL? If yes, qhat does it think about this coil?

I would be most interested to find out what is "wrong/right" with this coil, if you have the time and interest yourself of course. I am sure I am not alone.

Thanks in advance
Andy

PS. Don, you are a great "read" in all your posts, or a great "see" when your videos are posted, very well done.....one of my favourite reads here.....

[satdaveuk]

Well impressed Don, as said considering your next to a steel garage door as well its remarkable, and gives us a good insight to how are machines should perform.
With my latest coils ive been using mylar cut from camping covers conductive side up so i can wrap directly onto the well varnished windings then a thin single copper core wire wraped widely around the top of the mylar all the way around for the earth connection, then insulated.

Don, what are you using for shielding and how are you connecting to it, by any chance do you have a pick of that last coil before you pot it?

Regards

[Stefano]

I made a coil for Stefano and he was getting about 25" on his TGSL.

...not 25" but 25cm of course
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BZXe...uS1rBbO8A_P1Qu

I recall having tested once the mylar foil from a big poliester capacitor for a Hammerhead test coil and it worked. I haven't tried it with the TGSL coil though but might be a suitable replacement for Don's survival blankets mylar? I used the aluminium duct tape bought in US as per ivconic instructions but had no succes with it.
back in QRX

[dfbowers]

Well impressed Don, as said considering your next to a steel garage door as well its remarkable, and gives us a good insight to how are machines should perform.
With my latest coils ive been using mylar cut from camping covers conductive side up so i can wrap directly onto the well varnished windings then a thin single copper core wire wraped widely around the top of the mylar all the way around for the earth connection, then insulated.

Don, what are you using for shielding and how are you connecting to it, by any chance do you have a pick of that last coil before you pot it?

Regards

I don't have a picture of that "exact" coil but the one pictured below was made the same way. I quit using this coil because it's noisy in wet grass (grounded per TGSL coil making). I was using copper tape for my first few coils (like this one) but subsequent tests showed that copper tape was not the best choice. I since settled on the mylar survival blanket idea.

I will have to scope it out to see what the null looks like but pretty sure it's not right.

[Gwil]

Hi Don

Could you explain what the problem is with copper tape as shielding material? Reduced sensitivity? Instability? I haven't used it but I would have expected it to be similar to aluminium foil (except that you can solder to it) which seems to be widely used.

Gwil

[satdaveuk]

I don't have a picture of that "exact" coil but the one pictured below was made the same way. I quit using this coil because it's noisy in wet grass (grounded per TGSL coil making). I was using copper tape for my first few coils (like this one) but subsequent tests showed that copper tape was not the best choice. I since settled on the mylar survival blanket idea.

I will have to scope it out to see what the null looks like but pretty sure it's not right.

Nice job Don
Are you putting the mylar shield directly onto the windings conductive side upwards then connection wraped on as I do, or the origonal way of insulation tape then shield connection wire then mylar wrap conductive side down.

[dfbowers]

Nice job Don
Are you putting the mylar shield directly onto the windings conductive side upwards then connection wraped on as I do, or the origonal way of insulation tape then shield connection wire then mylar wrap conductive side down.

I have been running a thing stip of copper foil around the coil and then a layer of mylar conductive side inward. That way, I have something to solder to.

Sensitivity is noticably reduced using copper or aluminum foil tape. I first noticed this when I made a couple of HH coils. One with Mylar was more sensitive.