TESORO GOLDEN SABRE

[Max]

Not meaning to change the subject, but....
Here is a conductive glue recipe that might come in handy. I'll give it a try when I can. But you can still try it. Maybe it can be be used for bonding aluminum foil to copper shielding?
i.e. Faraday shield to ground?
http://www.instructables.com/id/EYA7...SXBI/?ALLSTEPS

Hi porkluvr,
I've made experiements with graphite paints. There are very good products (e.g. Kontact etc) that are in spray cans sold for few. I've used many times.
Good for VLFs coils... used in small homemade pinpointer too.

But I have also graphite powder of good quality. Lub. graphite used for machineries and tryed to made some mix of glues and paints with it.

I've tested a lot but results were not good cause too much graphite is required to make a good paint...
also colloidal solutions require some tannic acid to break granes into small particles... I know how-to but is too complex getting good quantity of tannic acid.

At the end I gave up on mixing stuff. But the recipe you signaled seems interesting... toluol paint, liquid tape... may work.

What I've found is that when you use also fine grains of graphite in your mix problem is that you need big layers of paint to get low resistance (low enough to be useful e.g. in VLF or PI) cause not-colloidal dispersions are hi-inefficient transporting electrons that need to jump from one layer to other of graphite "planes".
Problem is at interfaces between small particles.

I've painted a piece of plastic, dry it, then measured resistance (was around 10000ohm) then passed over (brushing) a piece of paper ... then measuring again resistance was around 500ohm : "aligment" of particles and smooth surface makes it become much more conductive.

When you use colloidal graphite paints you haven't such problems and get thin and hi-conductive layer cause varnish is uniform dispersion of colloidal particles: this is the real trick. But you need tannic acid to do it!

Best regards,
Max

[nelson]

Hi Max.

Well, yesterday i tried your 22 cms coils and the values obteined are the following:

-TX 6.20 mH, 22.8 ohms, 115 turns, wire 30AWG
- RX 6.80 mH, 23.4 ohms, 120 turns, wire 30 AWG

Results after nulling:

For a 12 mm coin not more than 16 cms, not good.

Now, you are talking that we can play with caps and my question is wich caps should i play with?
What about the cable that connects the coil to the circuit. I m using a USB cable that has 4 wires and a shield. Of this i have used onle three wires and the shield to connect the coil.
Max i have do everything that was posted here by the experts on GS, and my results didn´t pass from the values published. So now i think that the problem is on the cable or has you said on caps. I feel that i m very close to get maximun deep, but i need your advice about this.

Thanks and regards

Nelson

Hi all,

this post just to explain that wire diameter is not so important in homemade.

I've made total of 3 x DD22 during bandido experiments and testing.
Now have just the DD22 that I've described (120+120 turns 30AWG).

I've made , with same dimensions other 2 DD22 coils using 0.275mm (0.30mm with varnish) and 0.30mm (0.33mm with varnish) diameter wire.
Of course, I've made some more turns to get about right resistance range (18-24 ohm) required, and also changed caps... tested various stuff.

I don't remember now exactly data about turns but resistance was 18-20 ohm for both tx and rx in both coils. I haven't use shields on them... just tested without shields and results were good.

I remember I get 1eur coin at 28-32cm using same geometry of actual coil with both. All I've to do was:
- getting right resistance
- getting about 10KHz on TX oscillator
- getting a good null

At the end, I choose 30AWG coil cause I get it goes better with original cap values (with slight mods. 3-4 nF) and get maximum depth (about 30cm for 1eur coin underground with that DD22). Then recovered wire used for the other 2 coils... cause I feel good with my actual and have just 1 suitable coil-container to seal.

My experience is the proof that you can make good coils with higher gauge wire just increasing some turns and get them working in right conditions (frequency and nulling). I got good results on 0.275 much like 0.25 and only have some troubles getting 0.30 working (required heavy caps. mod)

There's no magic about wire gauges...

What you could do with 0.25... you could do with 0.23, 0.24... 0.28!

And all this cause you don't need standard coil! Your is an homemade... you can play with caps... and turns as you want.
I mantained that DD22 (0.25) only cause I got an original coil and then need standard caps on front-end! Also my 8'' round concentric is much like original coil from tesoro! Same reason.

So... don't become crazy with wire gauges... you need "about" 30AWG... but it's not really critical. Belive me.

Best regards,
Max

[nelson]

Hola detectoman y gracias por tus consejos.
Por ahora solo trabajo en la bobina y dependiendo de mis ultimos resultados, iniciaré las correciones que se necesiten efectuar al circuito.
Atte.
Nelson

Hi detectoman and thanks for your advices.
By now i m only working on my coil and after the results i get i ll try to see what can be do to the circuit.

Best regards
Nelson

for nelson

hi if you have problems for maxime deep detection of your gs
maybe wrong value resistences, or interchanged , use precision resistances value
what say ivconic? 1/4 watts or 1/2 watts i not know
you put other substitutes in ics lm at tlo originales sure! this is the problem
problem coils can,t
ivconic can say your messures point for point in outputs of ics to ground
apologies for my bad english

nelson revise los valores de las resistencias, pudiera ser que algunas no dan los cercanos porcentajes, si estan muy corridos ponga otras mas apegadas al diagrama, pregunte si ivconic puso de 1/4 watt o de 1/2 watt, y si pusistes ics substitutos procura poner iguales como lo hizo ivconic, es muy dificil poder igualar un circuito que fue optimo por casualidad, asi que procura copiar identicamente el circuito de ivconic, y quita amperaje, el regulador solo regula los voltios y no la potencia de amperes, eso te puede traer un problema, 4 ampers es demasiado, y si das un roce a corto quemaras muchos componentes, te mando un saludo

detectoman

best regards to all
detectoman

[Max]

Hola detectoman y gracias por tus consejos.
Por ahora solo trabajo en la bobina y dependiendo de mis ultimos resultados, iniciaré las correciones que se necesiten efectuar al circuito.
Atte.
Nelson

Hi detectoman and thanks for your advices.
By now i m only working on my coil and after the results i get i ll try to see what can be do to the circuit.

Best regards
Nelson

Hi Nelson,
yes it is... you could make good coils even if wire gauge is different.
Have you measured frequency on tx osc ?
What's your nulling peak-to-peak voltage ?

I don't know why you get so bad results on your coil ! Cable could be a problem if too much capative effects are related to its conductors... but I think usb cables are good enough to drive coil and get good results.

About cap mods I just select cap to get about right freq. on tx oscillator... , then if required, select cap value (trying adding or sub some nF) to rx cap to get maximum depth. But I think your problem is not in caps values with coil described... think that there would be something else.

Too low detection:

have you reversed rx leads as test ? sometimes reversing rx leads is required to make coil working in right phase with other parts.

Let me know.

Best regards,
Max

[nelson]

H i Max and thanks.

Yes i was thinking about coil connections, so this afternoon, i ll check that start leads of coils are coonected to GND and the rest has was explained.

Regards

Nelson

Hi Nelson,
yes it is... you could make good coils even if wire gauge is different.
Have you measured frequency on tx osc ?
What's your nulling peak-to-peak voltage ?

I don't know why you get so bad results on your coil ! Cable could be a problem if too much capative effects are related to its conductors... but I think usb cables are good enough to drive coil and get good results.

About cap mods I just select cap to get about right freq. on tx oscillator... , then if required, select cap value (trying adding or sub some nF) to rx cap to get maximum depth. But I think your problem is not in caps values with coil described... think that there would be something else.

Too low detection:

have you reversed rx leads as test ? sometimes reversing rx leads is required to make coil working in right phase with other parts.

Let me know.

Best regards,
Max

[nelson]

Hi Max.

Are this coils connections ok?

Thanks
Nelson

Hi Nelson,
yes it is... you could make good coils even if wire gauge is different.
Have you measured frequency on tx osc ?
What's your nulling peak-to-peak voltage ?

I don't know why you get so bad results on your coil ! Cable could be a problem if too much capative effects are related to its conductors... but I think usb cables are good enough to drive coil and get good results.

About cap mods I just select cap to get about right freq. on tx oscillator... , then if required, select cap value (trying adding or sub some nF) to rx cap to get maximum depth. But I think your problem is not in caps values with coil described... think that there would be something else.

Too low detection:

have you reversed rx leads as test ? sometimes reversing rx leads is required to make coil working in right phase with other parts.

Let me know.

Best regards,
Max

[Max]

Hi Max.

Are this coils connections ok?

Thanks
Nelson

Hi Nelson,
(used the zoom) yes they are! But I said to try reversing leads at rx... I mean that before you have to disconnect the lead connected to gnd wire and use the other with gnd, then the (now) free one alone to the circuit: swap the rx leads at coil level.

Picture is right but doesn't say you nothing about start and finish of rx coil.

Best regards,
Max

[Max]

So this is the right schematic ?

I think so!

Best regards,
Max

[detectoman]

nelson:

lo que dice max es que las bobinas funcionan diferente, mejor o peor, si intercambias sus cables, o sea poniendo uno en donde hiba el otro, o sea cualquier bobina, tambien funciona diferente si le das vuelta a una bobina en cuanto a como esta la otra, tambien funcionan diferente si la de arriba la pones abajo o biceversa, yo veo que tu detector esta funcionando bien solo tienes una pequna falla la que yo creo no esta en las bobinas sino en algun ic que no se acopla a los demas, mira yo he hecho circuitos con dualopamps, y de diferentes substitutos funcionan bastante diferente, tienes razon en agotar las pruebas en las bobinas pero ya has hecho bastantes, y si pudiera ser tambien el tipo de cable blindado que estas usando en la conexion, algunos blindajes son de acero y otros traen aluminio esto pudiera obstruir el funcionamiento ideal, yo creo que deberias preguntar a ivconic para que mande una foto del cable que el usa, y ver si puedes conseguirlo igual, de todos modos deberias probar con cables sueltos para ver la diferencia
no creo que el problema este en los coils, yo tambien creo que tu frecuencia no esta de acuerdo a la otra, en ese caso necesitaras compensar un poco probando algunos condensadores diferentes en paralelo con lo que son las salidas puntales del trasmisor, junto a las bobinas o sea ponerlas en paralelo, asi darias un poco mas alta la frecuencia la que elevaria el alcance en aire y por supuesto no fuera demasiada para no penetrar en la tierra, ya que frecuencia demasiado alta da mucho alcance en el aire pero ya en la tierra es ineficaz
lo que tiene tu detector no es una gran falla solo es ponerlo a punto
de hecho ya esta funcionando, y siendo tu apenas principiante pues es un enorme avance
no pierdas la calma y toma largos descansos, para que te despejes, y no te centres demasiado en ese detector, no tomes decisiones precipitadas y revisa una y otra vez detenidamente los valores del circuito, cualquier diferencia en algun componente marcaria la diferencia, en cuanto a que una bobina no este dando los ohmios iguales que los de ivconic, solo es cosa que aumentes o disminuyas soldando otro pedazo de alambre de cobre, asi podras poner las medidas incluso con fracciones intermedias
pregunta a ivconic que corrientes salen en sus puntas hacia el coil, del trsm y del recept, y veras que habra diferencia entre las tuyas y las de el, entonces sabras donde anda el error
pero para eso deberas poner las mismas baterias que ivconic, sino te dara lecturas muy diferentes
te mando un abrazo y te felicito por tus logros y tu gran empeno
toma tu tiempo distraete un poco
yo no estoy haciendo ese detector yo estoy enfocado en otros experimentos, por ejemplo simplificaciones sobre otros detectores, sobre bfos, sobre dos cajas, y sobre vlf muy sencillos, y no dare los resultados hasta que tenga los mejores logros
por favor si tienes tiempo de traducir esto, ya que navego con una pc prestada, la mia ya se dano

detectoman

[nelson]

Hi Max.
Ok, i think i found the problem with my coils. My connections to pcb were wrong. The leads that came from both shields of the coils, were connected not to GND on the board. In other words connections on the pcb were inverted for both coils. So yesterday i connected rigth and after that i tested my first coil that is not well made (3.4 mH and 4.2 mH; 16 ohms and 19 ohms, 22 cms diameter), but i got better results and gain btw 3 to 6 cms more.
So now i ll connect and null a copy of your 22 cms coil, that has good resistance and inductance values, to see what will be the results.

Regards

Nelson

Hi Nelson,
(used the zoom) yes they are! But I said to try reversing leads at rx... I mean that before you have to disconnect the lead connected to gnd wire and use the other with gnd, then the (now) free one alone to the circuit: swap the rx leads at coil level.

Picture is right but doesn't say you nothing about start and finish of rx coil.

Best regards,
Max

[nelson]

Hola Detectoman y gracis por tus comentarios.
Bueno la verdad es que hoy puedo decir que he encontrado probablemente la rezon de mis problemas y esta es que ambas bobinas, estaban conectadas a la inversa. Por ejemplo la bobina TX en vez de tener conectado el blindaje a tierra, lo tenía al revés. Lo mismo que la RX.
Por lo tanto, primero veré que ocurre con la nueva bobina que copie de Max, la cual esta bién en todas sus medidas, para luego comentarles al foro mis resultados. De hecho con la primera bobina que arme, he probado y los resultados aumentaron entre 3 a 6 centimetros. Claro que esta bobina no fue bien calculada por lo que sus valores inductivos y resistivos están totalmente fuera de rango.
Saludos y estamos en contacto

Atte.
Nelson

PD:No te puedo traducir por tiempo, ya que estoy en mi trabajo y además no soy muy bueno con el ingles. Solo pequeños textos.

nelson:

lo que dice max es que las bobinas funcionan diferente, mejor o peor, si intercambias sus cables, o sea poniendo uno en donde hiba el otro, o sea cualquier bobina, tambien funciona diferente si le das vuelta a una bobina en cuanto a como esta la otra, tambien funcionan diferente si la de arriba la pones abajo o biceversa, yo veo que tu detector esta funcionando bien solo tienes una pequna falla la que yo creo no esta en las bobinas sino en algun ic que no se acopla a los demas, mira yo he hecho circuitos con dualopamps, y de diferentes substitutos funcionan bastante diferente, tienes razon en agotar las pruebas en las bobinas pero ya has hecho bastantes, y si pudiera ser tambien el tipo de cable blindado que estas usando en la conexion, algunos blindajes son de acero y otros traen aluminio esto pudiera obstruir el funcionamiento ideal, yo creo que deberias preguntar a ivconic para que mande una foto del cable que el usa, y ver si puedes conseguirlo igual, de todos modos deberias probar con cables sueltos para ver la diferencia
no creo que el problema este en los coils, yo tambien creo que tu frecuencia no esta de acuerdo a la otra, en ese caso necesitaras compensar un poco probando algunos condensadores diferentes en paralelo con lo que son las salidas puntales del trasmisor, junto a las bobinas o sea ponerlas en paralelo, asi darias un poco mas alta la frecuencia la que elevaria el alcance en aire y por supuesto no fuera demasiada para no penetrar en la tierra, ya que frecuencia demasiado alta da mucho alcance en el aire pero ya en la tierra es ineficaz
lo que tiene tu detector no es una gran falla solo es ponerlo a punto
de hecho ya esta funcionando, y siendo tu apenas principiante pues es un enorme avance
no pierdas la calma y toma largos descansos, para que te despejes, y no te centres demasiado en ese detector, no tomes decisiones precipitadas y revisa una y otra vez detenidamente los valores del circuito, cualquier diferencia en algun componente marcaria la diferencia, en cuanto a que una bobina no este dando los ohmios iguales que los de ivconic, solo es cosa que aumentes o disminuyas soldando otro pedazo de alambre de cobre, asi podras poner las medidas incluso con fracciones intermedias
pregunta a ivconic que corrientes salen en sus puntas hacia el coil, del trsm y del recept, y veras que habra diferencia entre las tuyas y las de el, entonces sabras donde anda el error
pero para eso deberas poner las mismas baterias que ivconic, sino te dara lecturas muy diferentes
te mando un abrazo y te felicito por tus logros y tu gran empeno
toma tu tiempo distraete un poco
yo no estoy haciendo ese detector yo estoy enfocado en otros experimentos, por ejemplo simplificaciones sobre otros detectores, sobre bfos, sobre dos cajas, y sobre vlf muy sencillos, y no dare los resultados hasta que tenga los mejores logros
por favor si tienes tiempo de traducir esto, ya que navego con una pc prestada, la mia ya se dano

detectoman

[Max]

Hi Max.
Ok, i think i found the problem with my coils. My connections to pcb were wrong. The leads that came from both shields of the coils, were connected not to GND on the board. In other words connections on the pcb were inverted for both coils. So yesterday i connected rigth and after that i tested my first coil that is not well made (3.4 mH and 4.2 mH; 16 ohms and 19 ohms, 22 cms diameter), but i got better results and gain btw 3 to 6 cms more.
So now i ll connect and null a copy of your 22 cms coil, that has good resistance and inductance values, to see what will be the results.

Regards

Nelson

Hi Nelson,
fine, so maybe was that the mistake on lead connections. The gain of depth is a good indicator that you're on the right way.
Keep testing... I know that sometimes could be a stress make lot of mods on coils, wound many etc but it's only way to get them work and really useful to make MD builder experience and skills. I think you'll get good results at the end.

Best regards,
Max

[Nihil Roma Maius]

Well, Max: I read all you teach here. Ask why real expert in MD don't make any intervention or discussion in this thread managed by you. But I respect Ivconic and Sasho because they are not only theorethicals, but professionals! Also I respect the others because they expect few light...

I miss Bbsailor, R. Sniff and other real capos.

Explain me why you use here soft language (in your expertise) but in terra incognita electronic LRL (not of your speciality) you use a low language...

Hey guys, take care!

Nihil Roma Maius

[Max]

Well, Max: I read all you teach here. Ask why real expert in MD don't make any intervention or discussion in this thread managed by you. But I respect Ivconic and Sasho because they are not only theorethicals, but professionals! Also I respect the others because they expect few light...

I miss Bbsailor, R. Sniff and other real capos.

Explain me why you use here soft language (in your expertise) but in terra incognita electronic LRL (not of your speciality) you use a low language...

Hey guys, take care!

Nihil Roma Maius

Hi,
this thread is not "managed" by me, I haven't started it and are here just to exchange informations and give some hints to guys that need few help doing GSabre.

"Ask why real expert in MD don't make any intervention or discussion in this thread managed by you."

so I'm not ? Ok, if you say that, I have to trust you!
Well, I don't know why they don't post here... maybe aren't interested in GSabre, who knows ? If that's your problem ask them direcly!
I'm not a GURU or medium... and can't find/know stuff using ultra-science for detection...

"But I respect Ivconic and Sasho because they are not only theorethicals, but professionals! Also I respect the others because they expect few light..."

So do I. But difference between me and you is that I don't sell SNAKE OIL as light.

"I miss Bbsailor, R. Sniff and other real capos."
These are great experts! Right!

But, I think you really miss much other "experts" that were ridiculized here cause of crappy thinking and snake-oil companies support and selling... and all we know who they are. Call Damaso to join the team if you feel alone!
Or are just you Mr. Damaso , hiding back the imperial stamp ???
What a huge number of south american business ruined all that LRL fakes talking here !!??

"Explain me why you use here soft language (in your expertise) but in terra incognita electronic LRL (not of your speciality) you use a low language...

Hey guys, take care!"

Explain what ? I have to explain nothing here... but maybe you have to.

I don't advertise anything, don't try to sell anything, just share my opinions with others and just to learn and for fun cause I'm an entusiast TH and MD owner.

I don't need to sell LRL-dreams (or nightmares) to live. Like someone else do here... but that's fine, you keep stay in business.

You could sell to belivers your stuff, your BS, whatever... but don't try to put me at same level of you and others belonging to the LRL-tribe.

We are not the same.

Best regards,
Max

[nelson]

Thanks Max.
Yes, my connections were wrong (shame on me), and this means that my coils were tx and rx signal with the coil and of course the foil (WRONG). Now i m shure that the signal is tx and rx the rigth way, and the shield is really working has it was design (shielding).
I don´t know if i ll have the time to work today on golden sabre, but saturday for shure i ll. Weather for this weekend looks fine, so after i get the 22 cms coil working, i will go outside to make some field test.
ohh i forgot, when you place a coin close to one side of the coils, is it normal to detect it? i ask this because when i connected the coil the wrong way, all kinds of coins that where close to one side of the coil, were detected and this confirm my idea that the tx signal was radiated by the coil and also the shield.

Best regards and thanks to all for helpping me to get this nice machine working.

Nelson

Hi Nelson,
fine, so maybe was that the mistake on lead connections. The gain of depth is a good indicator that you're on the right way.
Keep testing... I know that sometimes could be a stress make lot of mods on coils, wound many etc but it's only way to get them work and really useful to make MD builder experience and skills. I think you'll get good results at the end.

Best regards,
Max