MAX read this !

[ivconic]

I made some huge progress!
Previously i said no more Classic III!
It was because Tesoro Golden Sabre works from a start very good.
I am still very satisfied with it. Very good detector!
But, since i do have Troy Shadow X3, but unadjusted....i was
thinking to test its coil with Classic III, cose resistances on
TX and RX almost matched with original White's coils....
And it was good guessing! Works PERFECT!
The very BEST performances on coins i ever saw!!!
So, Classic III with Troy X3 coil is winning combination!
Although i made few changes, changed some capacitances arround
oscillator and few resistors....It was experiment, and it worked!
Yesterday i tested it on real field. I picked up roman location.
It was better than i expected.
Depth is great. Found coins (0.8cm-1.2cm) at 20...28cm in the ground!!!
Coil was in the air, some 5-6cm over the ground! Sound loud and clear!
Discrimination is also excellent, on smaller items.
Cant discriminate bigger iron items well. But this is the case with all
detectors i tested so far....
Main thing with this wild combination is stabillity; most stabile detector
(with this coil) i ever saw!!!? I can punch,slam coil on some rocks,trees..
still remain stabile, no sound. No matter ground was wet,still no false
signals!
Best sensitivity in all metal mode on iron. Detected iron arrow (8cm long)
at 60cm distance....VERY LOUD AND WIDE SOUND!
When disc is ON, and adjusted just about to make "cracky" sound on iron,depth
on coins remains the same. No changes. Very,very deep and stabile.
Comparing to X-Terra 70 and Minelab Musketeer Colt (i prefered it until now)...
....no competition! Both Minelabs are out of competition with this Classic/Troy
combination! The very BEST and i mean it, so far i had!
Of course, most of the tests i done on coins and small items.I am only interested
in those. Digging huge holes is not my favorite...
What can i say more? Absolutelly no drawbacks! I havent noticed neither one!
Next few days i'll perform more comparsions.I intend to take Sovereign GT and
DFX with me on the same field and compare their performances with this combination.
Maybe sounds funny,stupid, but i think it gonna beat those too! Its because i done
a lot of tests already in the past and remeber some results..
What should be my conclusion here?? I guess answer is very clear!
Most important is the coil itself! MAX read this twice! I think that you dont have
problem with your Bandido, but with coils you used with...
Never mind you maybe tested it with original Tesoro's coil.....it will need more
precisely to be matched with coil you picked up. How? Simply you have to experiment until
your hair drops arround you! Capacitances in oscillator should be matched as close as
possiblle!
Also George Payne was very right! Now i do understand him very well!

"...Of course real ground conditions do not behave like pure ferrite. When subjected
to a detectors magnetic field small currents begin to flow in the soil. This will cause
the soil signal to be displaced slightly from that of pure ferrite..."
In the past i made crucial mistake when nulling coils; i used ferrite rod and tried to
achieve absoulte "rejection" of ferrite, along with gaining least voltage i can on RX
coil.....Taking ferrite as reference (middle point of phase) was my mistake!
Reading Payne's theory many times i realised his point. Should BE DISPLACED slightly, just
about to react on ferrite,but weak, very weak....He mentioned some +5 degrees. I agree.
I do not have instruments to accurately measure shifting but now i can use experience and
scope (old,rusty)and achieve this.
This is just what i found out testing and measuring Troy coil connected on CL3, when
adjusting capacitances arround oscillator...!
So Max, what you have to do is to pick up any suitable coil for your Bandido, connect it on
detector, switch ON.....use ferrite rod, few coins and experiment,experiment,experiment....
Change slightly capacitors in oscill. by adding or substracing few nanoFarads...until you
gain best discrimination with it.Depth also... I am sure you will be amazed with it after
hour or two...
Any descent detector can do the job! It is just about coils! Remeber this!
This will open quite new inetrests...i guess. I am planing to buy few Troy's coils more.
I'll cut one and count windings, measure wire gauge.....try to copy it. Not to sell or
distribute those further...but to learn more about this subject...
Now, i can only imagine how 19kHz coil can work that good on 6.3kHz machine...!!????
Hah!? Any ideas?

Heh!Heh!Heh!Heh!

Dig it yourself!

Regards!

[ivconic]

19 kHz coil

19 kHz coil came with Troy Shadow X3......

[kt315]

the smoking is danger take it off. I am never more not smoking!

yours.

[Geo]

Hi Ivconic. Coil works at 3th harmonic (6.3x3=18.9Khz). A very good trick is to operate the xmit at basic freq and the receiver at 3th harmonic. I think you do this.
Regards

[Max]

I made some huge progress!
Previously i said no more Classic III!
It was because Tesoro Golden Sabre works from a start very good.
I am still very satisfied with it. Very good detector!
But, since i do have Troy Shadow X3, but unadjusted....i was
thinking to test its coil with Classic III, cose resistances on
TX and RX almost matched with original White's coils....
And it was good guessing! Works PERFECT!
The very BEST performances on coins i ever saw!!!
So, Classic III with Troy X3 coil is winning combination!
Although i made few changes, changed some capacitances arround
oscillator and few resistors....It was experiment, and it worked!
Yesterday i tested it on real field. I picked up roman location.
It was better than i expected.
Depth is great. Found coins (0.8cm-1.2cm) at 20...28cm in the ground!!!
Coil was in the air, some 5-6cm over the ground! Sound loud and clear!
Discrimination is also excellent, on smaller items.
Cant discriminate bigger iron items well. But this is the case with all
detectors i tested so far....
Main thing with this wild combination is stabillity; most stabile detector
(with this coil) i ever saw!!!? I can punch,slam coil on some rocks,trees..
still remain stabile, no sound. No matter ground was wet,still no false
signals!
Best sensitivity in all metal mode on iron. Detected iron arrow (8cm long)
at 60cm distance....VERY LOUD AND WIDE SOUND!
When disc is ON, and adjusted just about to make "cracky" sound on iron,depth
on coins remains the same. No changes. Very,very deep and stabile.
Comparing to X-Terra 70 and Minelab Musketeer Colt (i prefered it until now)...
....no competition! Both Minelabs are out of competition with this Classic/Troy
combination! The very BEST and i mean it, so far i had!
Of course, most of the tests i done on coins and small items.I am only interested
in those. Digging huge holes is not my favorite...
What can i say more? Absolutelly no drawbacks! I havent noticed neither one!
Next few days i'll perform more comparsions.I intend to take Sovereign GT and
DFX with me on the same field and compare their performances with this combination.
Maybe sounds funny,stupid, but i think it gonna beat those too! Its because i done
a lot of tests already in the past and remeber some results..
What should be my conclusion here?? I guess answer is very clear!
Most important is the coil itself! MAX read this twice! I think that you dont have
problem with your Bandido, but with coils you used with...
Never mind you maybe tested it with original Tesoro's coil.....it will need more
precisely to be matched with coil you picked up. How? Simply you have to experiment until
your hair drops arround you! Capacitances in oscillator should be matched as close as
possiblle!
Also George Payne was very right! Now i do understand him very well!

"...Of course real ground conditions do not behave like pure ferrite. When subjected
to a detectors magnetic field small currents begin to flow in the soil. This will cause
the soil signal to be displaced slightly from that of pure ferrite..."
In the past i made crucial mistake when nulling coils; i used ferrite rod and tried to
achieve absoulte "rejection" of ferrite, along with gaining least voltage i can on RX
coil.....Taking ferrite as reference (middle point of phase) was my mistake!
Reading Payne's theory many times i realised his point. Should BE DISPLACED slightly, just
about to react on ferrite,but weak, very weak....He mentioned some +5 degrees. I agree.
I do not have instruments to accurately measure shifting but now i can use experience and
scope (old,rusty)and achieve this.
This is just what i found out testing and measuring Troy coil connected on CL3, when
adjusting capacitances arround oscillator...!
So Max, what you have to do is to pick up any suitable coil for your Bandido, connect it on
detector, switch ON.....use ferrite rod, few coins and experiment,experiment,experiment....
Change slightly capacitors in oscill. by adding or substracing few nanoFarads...until you
gain best discrimination with it.Depth also... I am sure you will be amazed with it after
hour or two...
Any descent detector can do the job! It is just about coils! Remeber this!
This will open quite new inetrests...i guess. I am planing to buy few Troy's coils more.
I'll cut one and count windings, measure wire gauge.....try to copy it. Not to sell or
distribute those further...but to learn more about this subject...
Now, i can only imagine how 19kHz coil can work that good on 6.3kHz machine...!!????
Hah!? Any ideas?

Heh!Heh!Heh!Heh!

Dig it yourself!

Regards!

Hi ivconic,
thanks for the infos. Seems really interesting. I think I need to make some tests around my bandido with different coils.
At the moment I'm testing on different test fields and results are well but your news are good about different coils. I think harmonics are related to different performances as Geo said.

Best regards,
Max

[nelson]

Coils are the trick too

Hi Ivconic, nice test and good report.
Last week i got garret ace 250 and this machine on first reports works good to me. It does not go to deep, so i was thinking on made a good coil for it. Do you know anything about coils for this machine?
THis weekend i ll post some pictures of ace 250 coil connector and will also meassure the inductance.
Regards
Nelson

I made some huge progress!
Previously i said no more Classic III!
It was because Tesoro Golden Sabre works from a start very good.
I am still very satisfied with it. Very good detector!
But, since i do have Troy Shadow X3, but unadjusted....i was
thinking to test its coil with Classic III, cose resistances on
TX and RX almost matched with original White's coils....
And it was good guessing! Works PERFECT!
The very BEST performances on coins i ever saw!!!
So, Classic III with Troy X3 coil is winning combination!
Although i made few changes, changed some capacitances arround
oscillator and few resistors....It was experiment, and it worked!
Yesterday i tested it on real field. I picked up roman location.
It was better than i expected.
Depth is great. Found coins (0.8cm-1.2cm) at 20...28cm in the ground!!!
Coil was in the air, some 5-6cm over the ground! Sound loud and clear!
Discrimination is also excellent, on smaller items.
Cant discriminate bigger iron items well. But this is the case with all
detectors i tested so far....
Main thing with this wild combination is stabillity; most stabile detector
(with this coil) i ever saw!!!? I can punch,slam coil on some rocks,trees..
still remain stabile, no sound. No matter ground was wet,still no false
signals!
Best sensitivity in all metal mode on iron. Detected iron arrow (8cm long)
at 60cm distance....VERY LOUD AND WIDE SOUND!
When disc is ON, and adjusted just about to make "cracky" sound on iron,depth
on coins remains the same. No changes. Very,very deep and stabile.
Comparing to X-Terra 70 and Minelab Musketeer Colt (i prefered it until now)...
....no competition! Both Minelabs are out of competition with this Classic/Troy
combination! The very BEST and i mean it, so far i had!
Of course, most of the tests i done on coins and small items.I am only interested
in those. Digging huge holes is not my favorite...
What can i say more? Absolutelly no drawbacks! I havent noticed neither one!
Next few days i'll perform more comparsions.I intend to take Sovereign GT and
DFX with me on the same field and compare their performances with this combination.
Maybe sounds funny,stupid, but i think it gonna beat those too! Its because i done
a lot of tests already in the past and remeber some results..
What should be my conclusion here?? I guess answer is very clear!
Most important is the coil itself! MAX read this twice! I think that you dont have
problem with your Bandido, but with coils you used with...
Never mind you maybe tested it with original Tesoro's coil.....it will need more
precisely to be matched with coil you picked up. How? Simply you have to experiment until
your hair drops arround you! Capacitances in oscillator should be matched as close as
possiblle!
Also George Payne was very right! Now i do understand him very well!

"...Of course real ground conditions do not behave like pure ferrite. When subjected
to a detectors magnetic field small currents begin to flow in the soil. This will cause
the soil signal to be displaced slightly from that of pure ferrite..."
In the past i made crucial mistake when nulling coils; i used ferrite rod and tried to
achieve absoulte "rejection" of ferrite, along with gaining least voltage i can on RX
coil.....Taking ferrite as reference (middle point of phase) was my mistake!
Reading Payne's theory many times i realised his point. Should BE DISPLACED slightly, just
about to react on ferrite,but weak, very weak....He mentioned some +5 degrees. I agree.
I do not have instruments to accurately measure shifting but now i can use experience and
scope (old,rusty)and achieve this.
This is just what i found out testing and measuring Troy coil connected on CL3, when
adjusting capacitances arround oscillator...!
So Max, what you have to do is to pick up any suitable coil for your Bandido, connect it on
detector, switch ON.....use ferrite rod, few coins and experiment,experiment,experiment....
Change slightly capacitors in oscill. by adding or substracing few nanoFarads...until you
gain best discrimination with it.Depth also... I am sure you will be amazed with it after
hour or two...
Any descent detector can do the job! It is just about coils! Remeber this!
This will open quite new inetrests...i guess. I am planing to buy few Troy's coils more.
I'll cut one and count windings, measure wire gauge.....try to copy it. Not to sell or
distribute those further...but to learn more about this subject...
Now, i can only imagine how 19kHz coil can work that good on 6.3kHz machine...!!????
Hah!? Any ideas?

Heh!Heh!Heh!Heh!

Dig it yourself!

Regards!

[Max]

Hi Ivconic, nice test and good report.
Last week i got garret ace 250 and this machine on first reports works good to me. It does not go to deep, so i was thinking on made a good coil for it. Do you know anything about coils for this machine?
THis weekend i ll post some pictures of ace 250 coil connector and will also meassure the inductance.
Regards
Nelson

Hi Nelson,
I agree: coils are the trick...I mean that with same detector control box you can get very different behaviours with different coils.
If the unit is stable and has a good S/N ratio like white's , tesoro's and many others vlf one could get similar results of depth using the "right" coil. I mean that coil must be well designed and realized to give extra performance...but that mostly the performance advantage over any other same kind detector is related to it.
I've this behaviour on my bandido...using different coils I get different performaces. Using similar coils (e.g. round 8'' and 9x8'') I get really close performances and differences are more related to the "usage" of the coil.

I'm not surprised that e.g. minelabs have really good performances (not considering disc here) with their DD coils that are really good and have also some preamp (ultra-low-noise) potted inside !

I guess that from the middle to the hi-part of the commercial detectors spectrum...performances differences are mainly related to coils and input circuitry (low noise means upgrading the overall S/N ratio).

One project that is good to prove what I say is the Georgi's detector...the one with two OO coils ...similar to other previous bulgarian designs. The trick is in the coil...that I read requires much hours of work for each made...all by hand work ...lots of care on alignment etc etc ...though also the circuit is good I think. Good VLFs share similar architectures...though there are differences in implementation. E.g. some east-european made detectors have many similar sections to tesoro's ! It's not a case.

I can say that tesoro's (and expecially bandido, I've made) have really good circuitry and can surprise in performances BUT requires a good tuning on coil...e.g. also capacitors etc.

The main part of performance is always between coil and geb/disc section - means coil and preamp ! Cause if first stage can't see metals deep...for sure next stages can't see too.

Best regards,
Max

[ivconic]

.....

Yes KT315! I have to stop with this very soon! I already have some problems with it. My hearth is getting worse...Only dont have enough will yet...waiting first stroke than i am gonna stop for sure...

Geo yes it is true! That was initial ideal..and it showed as very true...Try this with your CL3...

Max, i wanted to point you on fact that you have to do little more about adjusting Bandido's capacitances arround oscillator....Pick just one coil and try to take its maximum....no need to change a lot of coils....



regards!

[ivconic]

ACE

Nelson i have GTI 2500....
I can only post here inside composition of Scorcher coil for it....But not so sure that this coil is suitable for your ACE.....
About ACE...i dont have any experiences with it...
regards!

[Max]

Yes KT315! I have to stop with this very soon! I already have some problems with it. My hearth is getting worse...Only dont have enough will yet...waiting first stroke than i am gonna stop for sure...

Geo yes it is true! That was initial ideal..and it showed as very true...Try this with your CL3...

Max, i wanted to point you on fact that you have to do little more about adjusting Bandido's capacitances arround oscillator....Pick just one coil and try to take its maximum....no need to change a lot of coils....



regards!

Hi ivconic,
I've made that procedure with 9x8 coil and 8 round too. But using only 3-4 capacitors of different value respect to original 33nF one.
At the moment it mounts a 32.3nF capacitance with 9x8 and goes well, but then now you post this info I'll repeat everything trying to find a better capacitance for it. I noticed that also round 8'' goes better than with 33nF using 32.3nF. Don't know exactly why...but maybe resonance is involved more than I think. Anyway, also in Mike's instructions to make tesoro concentric coil there is a suggest on making different tests with few more or less nF on the rx coil parallel capacitance to get maximum depth.
Seems strange that just 700pF makes this difference but it's so...cause I think that when resonance is involved also 10pF could make significative difference here.
Anyway...cable is another issue too. I have original cable on original coil...and a simple screened one (not silicon made etc) pvc extern on DD and 8-round. Cables are short but for sure they adds at least 200pF or more.

I'll test with a wider spectrum of capacitors on RX to find better solution.

Best regards,
Max

[nelson]

Hi Max and sorry for not to respond this post.
Yes i m convince that if you make a goods coils, you get better porformance. Same with antennas and radios ( i m hamradio operator)
About ACE 250, can i use a diferent coil without damaging the MD, of course using the same conections?
I have to measure the inductance of the coils, is correct to measure thru the conector that comes from the coil?
Of course this will be made after i finish my Golden Sabre detector.
Regards
Nelson

Hi Nelson,
I agree: coils are the trick...I mean that with same detector control box you can get very different behaviours with different coils.
If the unit is stable and has a good S/N ratio like white's , tesoro's and many others vlf one could get similar results of depth using the "right" coil. I mean that coil must be well designed and realized to give extra performance...but that mostly the performance advantage over any other same kind detector is related to it.
I've this behaviour on my bandido...using different coils I get different performaces. Using similar coils (e.g. round 8'' and 9x8'') I get really close performances and differences are more related to the "usage" of the coil.

I'm not surprised that e.g. minelabs have really good performances (not considering disc here) with their DD coils that are really good and have also some preamp (ultra-low-noise) potted inside !

I guess that from the middle to the hi-part of the commercial detectors spectrum...performances differences are mainly related to coils and input circuitry (low noise means upgrading the overall S/N ratio).

One project that is good to prove what I say is the Georgi's detector...the one with two OO coils ...similar to other previous bulgarian designs. The trick is in the coil...that I read requires much hours of work for each made...all by hand work ...lots of care on alignment etc etc ...though also the circuit is good I think. Good VLFs share similar architectures...though there are differences in implementation. E.g. some east-european made detectors have many similar sections to tesoro's ! It's not a case.

I can say that tesoro's (and expecially bandido, I've made) have really good circuitry and can surprise in performances BUT requires a good tuning on coil...e.g. also capacitors etc.

The main part of performance is always between coil and geb/disc section - means coil and preamp ! Cause if first stage can't see metals deep...for sure next stages can't see too.

Best regards,
Max

[Max]

Hi Max and sorry for not to respond this post.
Yes i m convince that if you make a goods coils, you get better porformance. Same with antennas and radios ( i m hamradio operator)
About ACE 250, can i use a diferent coil without damaging the MD, of course using the same conections?
I have to measure the inductance of the coils, is correct to measure thru the conector that comes from the coil?
Of course this will be made after i finish my Golden Sabre detector.
Regards
Nelson

Hi Nelson,
don't know about Ace250, I haven't. But I'm sure you can't damage the unit if you use care on e.g. coil resistance(s) and don't put lower ones on it.
To measure inductance yes is right to measure also cable inductance cause when you use the unit this is the inductance(s) detector see, so measuring from connector is right. I've done e.g. on my original tesoro' coil (spider9x.
Pay attention at connections between coils and at their resistance(s) to avoid trubles to main unit.

Best regards,
Max