Designing and marketing new metal detectors.

[sawmill]

Thank You Tinkerer

Not just on my claims,I have prospected and mined in several
places. Any opinion I give will be related to prospecting or mining,
and not hobby detecting or coin/ relic detecting.

In my opinion if you could design a detector like the Garrett Infinium,
only with more depth,and small gold timings added to the existing timings,
you would have your answer.

Bells ,whistles,and gadgets are just a source of trouble. Keep it simple,
and bullet proof. Water proof,dust proof,and tough enough to handle
hard use is a big part to consider. If most subsistence miners could
afford smart phones,and laptops, they probably wouldn't need to scratch
in the dirt to feed their selves.

[UncleMatt]

Hello Tinkerer

Would you mind if I posted some helpful information from a
real subsistence,miner/prospectors point of view ? I am not
qualified to get into the electronics part,but I do Know about
what is useful or needed in the field.

The color is the last thing ,that should even be considered .
But I would pick a neutral color,if it gets to the point of being
a real working machine. I will not say any more unless you
think it may help .

While I agree from a practical perspective, the fact that even the color is off limits to change is a proof that marketing is not given enough consideration when it comes to MD's. Making arbitrary decisions based on one's own preferences and biases may work very well in some situations, but not when it comes to marketing a product with an eye for new customers.

And my niece would like to have a word with you guys who think girls/women would "never muck around" in the dirt and dust with a MD. I have to rein her in all the time, and she keeps coming back for more. Because women from your generation would never use an MD does not mean women from other generations feel the same...

[UncleMatt]

Bells ,whistles,and gadgets are just a source of trouble. Keep it simple,
and bullet proof. Water proof,dust proof,and tough enough to handle
hard use is a big part to consider. If most subsistence miners could
afford smart phones,and laptops, they probably wouldn't need to scratch
in the dirt to feed their selves.

Just a source of trouble? Yea, my Dad used to say that back in the day about having AC and electric windows in the family cars. So we suffered without those things so he could feel superior about being "more simple".

I agree that the unit must be hardy and able to withstand abuse, but if the main MD electronics can be built to withstand hard use, why not the "bells and whistles" too? I am all for keeping things simple, but not sacrificing new technology, especially if it can help sell MD's to a new market segment.

[sawmill]

UncleMatt

I did not say that the color was off limits,or anything about
gender. This thread was started about a detector used by subsistence
miners,and that is what I am sticking with.

I have a very real reason for my choice of colors,that may be a life
saving feature in some mining areas. Bells and whistles are fine if you
can afford them,or living close to a service center. In the middle of
no where ,they can mean the difference of success or failure.

We are talking electronics,they tend to be not as reliable as most think.
Also the more gadgets ,just means more trouble spots. I will go into more
detail in future posts,about color,and other important things.

[sinclairuser]

my thoughts on this were this build a rock soild robust simple detector with on off, volume and sensitivity(does'nt need disc at this stage)
only iron identification (possibly a tone) and tune it for gold and titanium(two freqs)
that would give us a solid base detector(this alone is a big task)
then the wider project could be a smartphone/android/tablet interface for apps and or extra control and maybe gps for location of finds
who knows if you keep the software open platform users could write their own code/apps thats the trick if you maximise the pool of code writers/app builders the possibilities are endless
as for pink detectors no thats the boardroom nonsense someone said earlier
individuality is important for people below thirty in products its part of the ipod generation so the trick is to put the colour into the accessories maybe even coloured silicone skins
but pink detectors no thanks

[Midas]

Commercial design group? Did I mention or imply that? Not my intention at all....

Sorry my bad. I guess it all just seemed to be getting very specific. All the issues a CDG would be interested in, but only for training purposes

Cell phones and Walky-Talky's are known to cause interference in detectors.

But not necessarily a problem if the link is always initiated by the MD, and communications kept very short to fit in between pulses.

And my niece would like to have a word with you guys who think girls/women would "never muck around" in the dirt and dust with a MD. I have to rein her in all the time, and she keeps coming back for more. Because women from your generation would never use an MD does not mean women from other generations feel the same...

Read again, nobody ever said that. There's obviously plenty of dirty girls out there (though frankly not enough around me). What we said was those type of girls probably couldn't care less if their detector is pink or not. Oh and if your niece does happen to love getting dressed up in her full pink tights, ballerina dress and sparkling fairy wand and then rolling around in the mud, shes probably the exception.

Midas

[sawmill]

OK guys ,color problem solved,just leave it primer grey,and include a
can of spray paint of their choice.

I would suggest at least a 14.8 volt 4400 MaH LIon battery pack
to power it too. And like Carl says ,lots of volts to the coil. Also no
open spoke coils for land use.

[bernte_one]

hello tinkerer

i read this thread on one run
very interesting discussion and many experience which comes from the true masters here

respect

i litlle tip that come up to my mind some time ago
we live in a world of individualits (everybody thinks he is a special one)
so why not give them their special thinks
i would start a little machine with good performance (pi)
as a basic model which everyone can effort
then you can offer different coatings for electro box and stem
coloured screws etc
and no other change to the basic model

(somethink like west coast choppers)
take somethink basicly and make it special

if you earned some money you can start to let others produce
then the stress you will have with work would crush your detector dream

then you can start a second model and dont forget to glue all your inventions in deep dark black epoxy

regards

[Tinkerer]

OK guys ,color problem solved,just leave it primer grey,and include a
can of spray paint of their choice.

I would suggest at least a 14.8 volt 4400 MaH LIon battery pack
to power it too. And like Carl says ,lots of volts to the coil. Also no
open spoke coils for land use.

There are so many good points coming up in this thread, that I can't catch up with answering and organizing the valid arguments into discussion lines.

Would somebody please help me?

Plain grey for color sounds very good if the detector should not be visible from afar. A can of fluorescent paint could make it as visible as possible. Perfect solutions for both trains of thought.

We are talking about a tool here, not a toy. Simple, rugged, low cost, durable, high sensitivity and deep.

Battery: this subject should be treated on a wider base. We really need the input from remote regions, where the detectors are going to be used.
Cost and availability are important factors.

My own way of making deep searching detectors does this at the cost of higher power. More battery?

Tinkerer

[Tinkerer]

Just a source of trouble? Yea, my Dad used to say that back in the day about having AC and electric windows in the family cars. So we suffered without those things so he could feel superior about being "more simple".

I agree that the unit must be hardy and able to withstand abuse, but if the main MD electronics can be built to withstand hard use, why not the "bells and whistles" too? I am all for keeping things simple, but not sacrificing new technology, especially if it can help sell MD's to a new market segment.

Uncle Matt,

you bring up some very good arguments and there are quite a few members of the forum that agree with your line of thought.
It may be a good idea to split the thread into 2 lines of thought.

#1- An ultra simple low cost detector.

#2- A detector that takes advantage of the modern technological advances.

I see you also keep the marketing angle in sight. Reach new market segments. This can work for both types of detectors, each one destined to a segment as broad as possible.

Tinkerer

[Tinkerer]

"...So far, "black" is king in the metal detector world..."

Black and dark green too.
Garrett's from GT and GTI series are looking nice!
ACE series are bananas (either way)!

Let's look a bit at the battery situation. You have mentioned Lead-Gel batteries. These are available almost everywhere.

Low cost

Easy recharge

About 250recharge cycles.

Heavy weight.

How does that compare with other possibilities?

Tinkerer

[Tinkerer]

my thoughts on this were this build a rock soild robust simple detector with on off, volume and sensitivity(does'nt need disc at this stage)
only iron identification (possibly a tone) and tune it for gold and titanium(two freqs)
that would give us a solid base detector(this alone is a big task)
then the wider project could be a smartphone/android/tablet interface for apps and or extra control and maybe gps for location of finds
who knows if you keep the software open platform users could write their own code/apps thats the trick if you maximise the pool of code writers/app builders the possibilities are endless
as for pink detectors no thats the boardroom nonsense someone said earlier
individuality is important for people below thirty in products its part of the ipod generation so the trick is to put the colour into the accessories maybe even coloured silicone skins
but pink detectors no thanks

A generation ago, there used to be Ham-radio transceivers with dozens of buttons and switches and knobs for every possible fine adjustment.
At the same time, the manufacturers of professional radios transceivers made rugged models for professional field use, for example marine radios, with the minimum possible controls.

I see some similarities with the metal detectors we are talking about. If we split the line of thought, we can gather a lot of information on each separate line of thought.

In the end, we might recombine the lines of thought and come up with an ultra detector, that is so perfect that is does all the things itself, without the need of much knowledge by the operator.

Really computer controlled. A bit beyond the reach of my knowledge.

But, there seem to be a lot of software experts nowadays and more and more experimenting platforms readily available. Now, if we can get the people who are knowledgeable about the workings of metal detectors, together with the people who are knowledgeable about the workings of CPU's or MCU's, or let's just say computers, the brainchild of this collaboration might just be that ULTRA DETECTOR.

Tinkerer

[Carl-NC]

I view metal detectors like the camera market. You can buy a dumb-dirt-simple point-and-click camera, or you can buy a professional-level DSLR with mind-numbing features. Or a mid-level camera that has decent features but still point-and-click. You can buy them (mostly) in Basic Black, but there are also some offered in Cool Colors. And then there are a few old fogies yearning for the Good Ol' Days of analog film, mumbling how it took better pictures than this new digital crap.

The point is, there is a viable market for lots of different detectors. If you are looking to maximize a return on investment (whether that be design time, tooling costs, or whatever) then you need to carefully look at the market and figure out which approach is best. Most likely, like cameras, it is a medium-level model with a few desirable features, very easy to use, a safe neutral color scheme, and really good performance. And, like cameras, you will be smack in the middle of a crowded and competitive market.

So then, you choose something that differentiates you from the competition, hopefully something that's also worth extra $$$. In cameras, that might be a geocaching model with built-in GPS tagging, or panoramic photos, or stereo photos. In detectors, it might be a specialty toward meteorites or demining, or something that does fantastic in nail-infested ground.

If you are not looking to maximize ROI, then you do whatever moves you. If that's a fuschia-camo paint scheme with a heads-up display and speech-synthesized target ID, then that's what you oughta be doing!

- Carl

[growdude]

I think muti frequency would be very benificial. Maybe 19khz 12khz and 5khz.

[Tinkerer]

I view metal detectors like the camera market. You can buy a dumb-dirt-simple point-and-click camera, or you can buy a professional-level DSLR with mind-numbing features. Or a mid-level camera that has decent features but still point-and-click. You can buy them (mostly) in Basic Black, but there are also some offered in Cool Colors. And then there are a few old fogies yearning for the Good Ol' Days of analog film, mumbling how it took better pictures than this new digital crap.

The point is, there is a viable market for lots of different detectors. If you are looking to maximize a return on investment (whether that be design time, tooling costs, or whatever) then you need to carefully look at the market and figure out which approach is best. Most likely, like cameras, it is a medium-level model with a few desirable features, very easy to use, a safe neutral color scheme, and really good performance. And, like cameras, you will be smack in the middle of a crowded and competitive market.

So then, you choose something that differentiates you from the competition, hopefully something that's also worth extra $$$. In cameras, that might be a geocaching model with built-in GPS tagging, or panoramic photos, or stereo photos. In detectors, it might be a specialty toward meteorites or demining, or something that does fantastic in nail-infested ground.

If you are not looking to maximize ROI, then you do whatever moves you. If that's a fuschia-camo paint scheme with a heads-up display and speech-synthesized target ID, then that's what you oughta be doing!

- Carl

Thanks for the excellent analysis and advice, Carl.

I can only agree.

In this changing world, the markets spread more and more over the whole globe. Living in the third world, I am much aware of the changes. Very often I come across new technology, where it is very obvious that it has been designed for the first world, where the traditional customers are located.
In the third world, some things are nearly the same, other things are radically different. To give just an example: There is still a large percentage of the world population that does not know how to read and write. Don't believe the statistics that the governments give.

This percentage probably amounts to more than a billion people. These people have been largely ignored by marketing people.

Among these people there are the 2 million or so gold diggers, subsistence miners, like Sawmill so nicely named. A possible good market for a "point and click" nugget detector. At present a practically non existent niche market.

These subsistence miners need to find 1 or 2 grams of gold per day, to survive. If we can show them a tool that can help them increase the output they will become avid buyers.

They need a tool, but the market is geared for toys.

Tinkerer