Designing and marketing new metal detectors.

[Carl-NC]

WM6

Just to see how the Pro pointer compares with a real probe
that is designed for very small objects,google Falcon MD 20.
The Falcon runs at 300 KHz,and is a real prospecting tool,and
for good reason.

I was just about to suggest that. Also to someone in another thread.

[sawmill]

Tinkerer

The non magnetic stainless needles just have a higher nickel content.
Why does being magnetic or non magnetic make any real difference?
Gold ,silver and other precious metals are non magnetic,and a detector
will see them.

Most of the needles that are a worry are cheap needles,and are magnetic
to a point. Needle stock has a lower percentage of chromium,and a higher
percentage of nickel to make them more flexible. They also have some carbon
to make them hold an edge for the point. The chromium is added for stain
and corrosion resistance,hence stainless. Too much chromium makes for a
brittle stainless steel.

[bbsailor]

See what Eric Foster has to say about detecting broken needles.http://www.findmall.com/read.php?34,...978#msg-171978

bbsailor

[Tinkerer]

See what Eric Foster has to say about detecting broken needles.http://www.findmall.com/read.php?34,...978#msg-171978

bbsailor

Hi bbsailor,

nice to see you pitching in.
As Eric says in his post, taking a first sample at 1us and a second sample 1us later should work. It also excludes all targets with a TC of more than 10us. A piece of alu foil of 1" square has a TC of about 10us.
Gum wrappers with alu foil could be common trash in the same areas, something to check for it's TC. Could be a problem when crumpled up.

On the other hand, needles on school grounds would only need to be detected at the surface. What is buried under a few inches is not a problem.

Tinkerer

[sawmill]

Tinkerer

My interest is in prospecting and mining. I believe that a machine for
detecting needles and other small objects,would be a great project
for you tech types. I also believe that there would be a big demand for
such a machine. I am not into electronics ,so I have just about used up
any worth while input,on this topic. The seed has been planted.maybe
some of you guys can make it grow.

There is a niche for a real prospecting detector too. The market has
plenty of different hobby prospecting detectors.

[Midas]

I'm not really convinced there's a big market for a needle detector. Syringes are mostly discarded on the surface. When they are buried, its usually in sand, where a rake and\or raking machine (Bondi beach has one of these that they use everyday) is a much quicker easier and cost effective cleanup tool than a MD. I could be wrong, just my thoughts.

Midas

[Tinkerer]

Tinkerer

My interest is in prospecting and mining. I believe that a machine for
detecting needles and other small objects,would be a great project
for you tech types. I also believe that there would be a big demand for
such a machine. I am not into electronics ,so I have just about used up
any worth while input,on this topic. The seed has been planted.maybe
some of you guys can make it grow.

There is a niche for a real prospecting detector too. The market has
plenty of different hobby prospecting detectors.

We could consider that the technical problems for a real gold prospecting detector have been solved. But, what are the marketing problems?

How many professionals are there in this field? To define "professional gold prospector" we could say, person who makes a living or at least regularly gets some income from his prospecting activity, in which the use of a detector is an important tool.

Is there a professional gold prospector association or other such organ that groups a fair percentage of professionals?

How can a marketing effort reach 100 pro prospectors?

Where would a marketing company find 10 pro prospectors that would be willing to go to 100 gold mining centers to show to the subsistence miners how to find gold with a detector?

Such a demonstration in a mining community of 20,000 gold diggers would sell a minimum of 1000 detectors.

From there on, it would be just word of mouth advertising. It would start a gold rush and detectors would sell like gold pans at the height of a gold rush.

Of course, the pro detector would still have to face competition from hobby detectors. Inexperienced detector users would not understand the difference and more often than not might be tempted to buy the bells and whistles instead of the real pro detector.

We would much appreciate your opinion on the above. Specially so, as you seem to be the only pro on the forum.

Tinkerer

[Tinkerer]

Can COLTAN be found with a metal detector?

Coltan, the most common mineral containing tantalum is in great demand world wide.

Can a metal detector detect Coltan?

Tinkerer

[Tinkerer]

Different stainless alloys have different levels of detectability, and higher frequencies do a better job of detecting them. It is likely you could create a specific s/s alloy which is entirely undetectable using induction methods.

Another detector challenge would be a high-security walk-through design. In prisons, they want to be able to detect a hypodermic needle hidden on a person's body walking through a 24" wide gate, at any angle. Or a small razor blade.

Designing a walk-through detector capable of detecting a hypodermic needle at any angle, is certainly quite a challenge.

Is there a manufacturer that might be interested in spending some R&D to face the challenge?

How would such an R&D project be structured? Maybe into small steps, each one leading to the next one or to abort if found not feasible?

Each step with limited funding?

Tinkerer

[Tinkerer]

Gold diggers in Brazil.

This mining camp had up to 100,000 people.
The largest gold nugget coming out of this hole weighed about 150 pounds.

Tinkerer

[Tinkerer]

Gold nuggets in Guyana

The jungle in Guyana is not very accessible, but this is where the gold is.

These nuggets could easily be detected with a metal detector.

Tinkerer

[ivconic]

Sawmill, here I am talking about stainless hypodermic needle detecting and not about tiny gold detecting.

I tested those needle by two detectors designed for tiny gold detecting, with Garrett AT Gold Pro and Tesoro Daiblo II (bot with stock elliptic coil). Both of those detectors can detect gold nugget of about 1gram at about 12cm (5") with easy. But no one can detect those needle even in close touch. No voice at all. Nothing. And propointer can detect every metallic dust in soil, but not those needles.

As ivconic report the same with Deus at 18kHz frequency.

Regarding frequencies. Look carefully at ivconic test of small titanium bolt here:

http://www.geotech1.com/forums/showp...1&postcount=92

As you can see, there was 1.1 gram titanium bolt tested on "Wet Beach" program too, this was at 18kHz, but barely 1cm of "depth" on other side in Relic program, working at 8kHz, this small part can be detected at 14cm. So, there is not all secret in frequencies used.

Maybe with smaller coil will go, I dont know, I have no one at this moment to test it. Fisher GB2 is coming out mostly with smaller coil, maybe it can, but I need real test report (excluding errors as hand detecting) and not presumption only.

Small addition;
Just hour ago friend was here with his Eagle Spectrum. So we made short test on titanium screw.
In Prospecting program screw was detected at 12-13cm in air with clear response.
We forget to test with needle, damn!
What was the frequency at Spectrum? 6 to 7kHz as i recall.
So i don't think working frequency is crucial here, although i agree that higher will perform a bit better.

[sawmill]

Tinkerer

No we can't assume that the technical problems have been solved.
There is no actual proof of that at all. At this time we have some
people with some theories,but no evidence of a real working machine.

I have heard that story for quite some time from several guys,but none
have produced a detector for real on site testing,that can be verified.

Playing the marketing game,without having the goods is a waste of time,
and only creates doubt and mistrust with potential customers.

[Carl-NC]

From there on, it would be just word of mouth advertising. It would start a gold rush and detectors would sell like gold pans at the height of a gold rush.

This is exactly what has happened in Africa... someone found a big nugget with a GPX, then suddenly everyone had to have a GPX. The people in these areas don't care about "professional" vs "hobby", they want whatever detector is finding the gold. The best marketing strategy is to give away some units and hope they find gold.

Designing a walk-through detector capable of detecting a hypodermic needle at any angle, is certainly quite a challenge.

Is there a manufacturer that might be interested in spending some R&D to face the challenge?

I know of only one company, Ceia (Italian, pronounced CHAY-uh), that has a W/T capable of meeting NIJ standards for prisons. It's even tougher than you think. Plus W/T's have other unique challenges, like being able to place two of them 4" apart, or run a line of 10 units, or operate right next to an X-ray machine.

I also know of a company who is in the process of ramping up a security W/T effort. Whether they want to pursue the "prison level" of the NIJ specs is still a question, and whether they would be interested in an outside R&D effort is even a bigger question.

[Tinkerer]

Tinkerer

No we can't assume that the technical problems have been solved.
There is no actual proof of that at all. At this time we have some
people with some theories,but no evidence of a real working machine.

I have heard that story for quite some time from several guys,but none
have produced a detector for real on site testing,that can be verified.

Playing the marketing game,without having the goods is a waste of time,
and only creates doubt and mistrust with potential customers.

OK so we are back on square one. What are the exact characteristics for a pro prospector gold detector?
How close to it does the F3 come?

The F3 is rugged, waterproof and simple to use. What else do we need?

Attached some more pictures from the Guyana gold region. In this region, daily tropical downpours happen more often than not. In fact, the rainy season is when the rivers turn into the roads that give access to the gold.

The camp we see in the picture has an airstrip. This is it's only access. It is either an air strip or a navigable river . There are no roads for hundreds of miles.

Tinkerer