TESORO GOLDEN SABRE

[nelson]

Hi Max and thanks for fast reply.


"** I tested the coils and after i found the nulling point i got 22 cms for a 14 mm coin on air"

good result, but I think you could tune it better...
What about coin , wich metal it is ? Alloy ?

AL COIN

ON A WEDDING GOLD RING, 22 CMS I DIAMETER, I GOT MUCH DEEP (24 CMS)

Some little tricks are related to shield. Have you tested coils without it ?

NO, I HAVEN´T

If so, what's detection range for same coin ?

I LL TRY IT

It's kitchen al roll or something else (I've noticed that aluminium/mylar is better , due to less metal content, but hard to find)?

YES, IT´S KITCHEN AL ROLL

Other issue is the overlapping zone shape and wideness. What about ? Parallel overlapping or oval ? How many millimeters between two windings at center ?

I USED OVAL OVERLAPPING AND SHAPE IT´S THE SAME HAS IVCONIC
FROM CENTER TO CENTER OVERLAPPING IT´S ABOUT 20 TO 30 MM

When you nulled what's the peak-to-peak voltage at RX (dumped)?

I HAVEN´T MEASURE IT, I JUST PLACE THE TWO COILS OVERLAPPING AND TESTED TO THE BEST DEEP I FOUND. ( I FOLLOW IVCONIC METHOD). THIS WAY IS VERY EASY TO DO TO REACH THE BEST POINT.

NOW A FEW QUESTIONS MAX:

1.- IS POSSIBLE TO BUILD THE COIL WITHOUT TIGHTENING TO MUCH, SO I CAN PLAY WITH CORRECT INDUCTANCE. IVCONIC POST THAT 141 TURNS FOR TX AND 151 TURNS FOR RX COIL, FOR A 22 CMS COIL. I USED THE SAME SHAPE AND DIAMETER FOR IT, BUT I HAD DIFERENT NUMBERS OF TURNS TO REACH THE CORRECT INDUCTANCE VALUES. I CONFESS THAT MY COILS ARE TO TIGHTENED. ALSO, CAN I JUST USE A CORD AND THE AL SHIEL TO GET IT WORKING. THIS BECAUSE WHEN I PUT THE ELECTRIC TAPE, MY VALUES GOES OFF FROM THE VALES NEEDED.

2.- MAX, I HAVE TRIED TO FIND A GOOD OWNERS MANUAL FOR THIS GOLDEN SABRE. I STILL CAN GET THE PICTURE FOR THE USE OF REJECT AND NOTCH FUNCTIONS ON GOLDEN SABRE. ALSO, DON´T KNOW WHAT ARE FOR POTS THE TWO POTS ON THE BOARD. I ONLY KNOW THAT ONE OF THEM, HAVE SOME INFLUENCE ON THE KIND AND SHAPE OF METAL DETECTED...ANY COMMENTS ABOUT THIS.

THANKS AGAIN FOR HELP ME AND THE REST OF GOOD PEOPLE HERE.

BEST REGARDS

NELSON

I think that with good tuning you could gain some cms.

Best regards,
Max[/QUOTE]

[Max]

Hi Max and thanks for fast reply.


"** I tested the coils and after i found the nulling point i got 22 cms for a 14 mm coin on air"

good result, but I think you could tune it better...
What about coin , wich metal it is ? Alloy ?

AL COIN

ON A WEDDING GOLD RING, 22 CMS I DIAMETER, I GOT MUCH DEEP (24 CMS)

Some little tricks are related to shield. Have you tested coils without it ?

NO, I HAVEN´T

If so, what's detection range for same coin ?

I LL TRY IT

It's kitchen al roll or something else (I've noticed that aluminium/mylar is better , due to less metal content, but hard to find)?

YES, IT´S KITCHEN AL ROLL

Other issue is the overlapping zone shape and wideness. What about ? Parallel overlapping or oval ? How many millimeters between two windings at center ?

I USED OVAL OVERLAPPING AND SHAPE IT´S THE SAME HAS IVCONIC
FROM CENTER TO CENTER OVERLAPPING IT´S ABOUT 20 TO 30 MM

When you nulled what's the peak-to-peak voltage at RX (dumped)?

I HAVEN´T MEASURE IT, I JUST PLACE THE TWO COILS OVERLAPPING AND TESTED TO THE BEST DEEP I FOUND. ( I FOLLOW IVCONIC METHOD). THIS WAY IS VERY EASY TO DO TO REACH THE BEST POINT.

NOW A FEW QUESTIONS MAX:

1.- IS POSSIBLE TO BUILD THE COIL WITHOUT TIGHTENING TO MUCH, SO I CAN PLAY WITH CORRECT INDUCTANCE. IVCONIC POST THAT 141 TURNS FOR TX AND 151 TURNS FOR RX COIL, FOR A 22 CMS COIL. I USED THE SAME SHAPE AND DIAMETER FOR IT, BUT I HAD DIFERENT NUMBERS OF TURNS TO REACH THE CORRECT INDUCTANCE VALUES. I CONFESS THAT MY COILS ARE TO TIGHTENED. ALSO, CAN I JUST USE A CORD AND THE AL SHIEL TO GET IT WORKING. THIS BECAUSE WHEN I PUT THE ELECTRIC TAPE, MY VALUES GOES OFF FROM THE VALES NEEDED.

2.- MAX, I HAVE TRIED TO FIND A GOOD OWNERS MANUAL FOR THIS GOLDEN SABRE. I STILL CAN GET THE PICTURE FOR THE USE OF REJECT AND NOTCH FUNCTIONS ON GOLDEN SABRE. ALSO, DON´T KNOW WHAT ARE FOR POTS THE TWO POTS ON THE BOARD. I ONLY KNOW THAT ONE OF THEM, HAVE SOME INFLUENCE ON THE KIND AND SHAPE OF METAL DETECTED...ANY COMMENTS ABOUT THIS.

THANKS AGAIN FOR HELP ME AND THE REST OF GOOD PEOPLE HERE.

BEST REGARDS

NELSON

I think that with good tuning you could gain some cms.

Best regards,
Max

[/quote]

Hi,
"1.- IS POSSIBLE TO BUILD THE COIL WITHOUT TIGHTENING TO MUCH, SO I CAN PLAY WITH CORRECT INDUCTANCE."

Yes, why not. You could do some change to inductance tightening it after wound... yes, using a cord and then shield to get right value...
only thing I'll be aware are unwanted variations of inductance due to movements e.g. when you move the coil... or hit stones on the search field.

I think you can do that way for test bench tests, without problems... but think that you need tight wound on real coil... and also seal/fix it with some epoxy too when right nulled, as I've done on mine.

"
2.- MAX, I HAVE TRIED TO FIND A GOOD OWNERS MANUAL FOR THIS GOLDEN SABRE. I STILL CAN GET THE PICTURE FOR THE USE OF REJECT AND NOTCH FUNCTIONS ON GOLDEN SABRE. ALSO, DON´T KNOW WHAT ARE FOR POTS THE TWO POTS ON THE BOARD. I ONLY KNOW THAT ONE OF THEM, HAVE SOME INFLUENCE ON THE KIND AND SHAPE OF METAL DETECTED...ANY COMMENTS ABOUT THIS."

I haven't the owner manual of GS but reject mean disc, using it you can reject stuff (iron, nickel etc) and keep in wanted (copper, silver etc) so it's a disc control. Notch I know is a function that give you the freedom of setting a wanted interval of phase (so rotate the "acceptance window") in which you want accept (detect) objects... so you can tune e.g. for silver... and get (ideally) just silver signals.
Great importance has gnd balance (in any vlf detector)... you must balance pumping searchcoil up and down at say 10cm from ground... up to 30cm... when your detector is right balanced you don't get any increase or decrease in audio tone - do it in all-metal mode, start with gnd balance (geb) pot at middle... adjust audio tone to be just audible... then you have to test and reglulate one way or another to get that no-influence point where you move up and down the coil over ground, without audio variations.
Another (good) method is using a ferrite round core... you need adjust geb control to get absolutely no signal moving e.g. at 5-8 cm from center of coil.
This last is indicated exp. for test bench tryout.

Sens is just gain... keep it higher till you ear cracking sound... then lower just to make cracking disappear.

All this require a bit of practice... but it's really easy when you understand and practice for few hours in the field.

Best regards,
Max

[nelson]

Hi Max and thanks for your information.
Here are my comments:

All was clear and now i have to wait until next weekend, to de some more tests.

About reject function, i can´t make it work. Has i understood, disc function is activated with no problems with disc switch. Also pot for disc is working ok, but reject still don´t understand how to make it work. When i turn it on and disc is on too, no sound and no detection is comming.

About ground balance, this procedure is making only one time, or on diferents soils must be adjusted again. If so, is posible to put and external pot to do this from the front panel, every time you need to adjust GB on diferent soils?

When i get new results on my coils i ll post them here.
Thanks and best regards.

Nelson

Santiago, CHILE

"1.- IS POSSIBLE TO BUILD THE COIL WITHOUT TIGHTENING TO MUCH, SO I CAN PLAY WITH CORRECT INDUCTANCE."

Yes, why not. You could do some change to inductance tightening it after wound... yes, using a cord and then shield to get right value...
only thing I'll be aware are unwanted variations of inductance due to movements e.g. when you move the coil... or hit stones on the search field.

I think you can do that way for test bench tests, without problems... but think that you need tight wound on real coil... and also seal/fix it with some epoxy too when right nulled, as I've done on mine.

"
2.- MAX, I HAVE TRIED TO FIND A GOOD OWNERS MANUAL FOR THIS GOLDEN SABRE. I STILL CAN GET THE PICTURE FOR THE USE OF REJECT AND NOTCH FUNCTIONS ON GOLDEN SABRE. ALSO, DON´T KNOW WHAT ARE FOR POTS THE TWO POTS ON THE BOARD. I ONLY KNOW THAT ONE OF THEM, HAVE SOME INFLUENCE ON THE KIND AND SHAPE OF METAL DETECTED...ANY COMMENTS ABOUT THIS."

I haven't the owner manual of GS but reject mean disc, using it you can reject stuff (iron, nickel etc) and keep in wanted (copper, silver etc) so it's a disc control. Notch I know is a function that give you the freedom of setting a wanted interval of phase (so rotate the "acceptance window") in which you want accept (detect) objects... so you can tune e.g. for silver... and get (ideally) just silver signals.
Great importance has gnd balance (in any vlf detector)... you must balance pumping searchcoil up and down at say 10cm from ground... up to 30cm... when your detector is right balanced you don't get any increase or decrease in audio tone - do it in all-metal mode, start with gnd balance (geb) pot at middle... adjust audio tone to be just audible... then you have to test and reglulate one way or another to get that no-influence point where you move up and down the coil over ground, without audio variations.
Another (good) method is using a ferrite round core... you need adjust geb control to get absolutely no signal moving e.g. at 5-8 cm from center of coil.
This last is indicated exp. for test bench tryout.

Sens is just gain... keep it higher till you ear cracking sound... then lower just to make cracking disappear.

All this require a bit of practice... but it's really easy when you understand and practice for few hours in the field.

Best regards,
Max[/QUOTE]

[nelson]

Here i m sending my golden sabre detector that is housing on a plactic electric box and the front panel is transparent, so you can see the circuit inside of it.
Best regards

Nelson

Hi Max and thanks for your information.
Here are my comments:

All was clear and now i have to wait until next weekend, to de some more tests.

About reject function, i can´t make it work. Has i understood, disc function is activated with no problems with disc switch. Also pot for disc is working ok, but reject still don´t understand how to make it work. When i turn it on and disc is on too, no sound and no detection is comming.

About ground balance, this procedure is making only one time, or on diferents soils must be adjusted again. If so, is posible to put and external pot to do this from the front panel, every time you need to adjust GB on diferent soils?

When i get new results on my coils i ll post them here.
Thanks and best regards.

Nelson

Santiago, CHILE

"1.- IS POSSIBLE TO BUILD THE COIL WITHOUT TIGHTENING TO MUCH, SO I CAN PLAY WITH CORRECT INDUCTANCE."

Yes, why not. You could do some change to inductance tightening it after wound... yes, using a cord and then shield to get right value...
only thing I'll be aware are unwanted variations of inductance due to movements e.g. when you move the coil... or hit stones on the search field.

I think you can do that way for test bench tests, without problems... but think that you need tight wound on real coil... and also seal/fix it with some epoxy too when right nulled, as I've done on mine.

"
2.- MAX, I HAVE TRIED TO FIND A GOOD OWNERS MANUAL FOR THIS GOLDEN SABRE. I STILL CAN GET THE PICTURE FOR THE USE OF REJECT AND NOTCH FUNCTIONS ON GOLDEN SABRE. ALSO, DON´T KNOW WHAT ARE FOR POTS THE TWO POTS ON THE BOARD. I ONLY KNOW THAT ONE OF THEM, HAVE SOME INFLUENCE ON THE KIND AND SHAPE OF METAL DETECTED...ANY COMMENTS ABOUT THIS."

I haven't the owner manual of GS but reject mean disc, using it you can reject stuff (iron, nickel etc) and keep in wanted (copper, silver etc) so it's a disc control. Notch I know is a function that give you the freedom of setting a wanted interval of phase (so rotate the "acceptance window") in which you want accept (detect) objects... so you can tune e.g. for silver... and get (ideally) just silver signals.
Great importance has gnd balance (in any vlf detector)... you must balance pumping searchcoil up and down at say 10cm from ground... up to 30cm... when your detector is right balanced you don't get any increase or decrease in audio tone - do it in all-metal mode, start with gnd balance (geb) pot at middle... adjust audio tone to be just audible... then you have to test and reglulate one way or another to get that no-influence point where you move up and down the coil over ground, without audio variations.
Another (good) method is using a ferrite round core... you need adjust geb control to get absolutely no signal moving e.g. at 5-8 cm from center of coil.
This last is indicated exp. for test bench tryout.

Sens is just gain... keep it higher till you ear cracking sound... then lower just to make cracking disappear.

All this require a bit of practice... but it's really easy when you understand and practice for few hours in the field.

Best regards,
Max

[/QUOTE]

[detectoman]

hola nelson
yo dire como dice geo buen trabajo nelson
y dire como dicen por aca, ta" chido!
i say how geo very good work
and i said in my city., is chide!
this presentation in trasparent, is very fantastic, how voman in little dress
look how see this!
hhahahahahaah
in mex, jajajajajaa

un abrazo campeon!'
detectoman

[Unregistered]

Hi,
nelson nice to here that you have reached good point!
Hope soon be ready to post my results.

[Max]

Hi Max and thanks for your information.
Here are my comments:

All was clear and now i have to wait until next weekend, to de some more tests.

About reject function, i can´t make it work. Has i understood, disc function is activated with no problems with disc switch. Also pot for disc is working ok, but reject still don´t understand how to make it work. When i turn it on and disc is on too, no sound and no detection is comming.

About ground balance, this procedure is making only one time, or on diferents soils must be adjusted again. If so, is posible to put and external pot to do this from the front panel, every time you need to adjust GB on diferent soils?

When i get new results on my coils i ll post them here.
Thanks and best regards.

Nelson

Santiago, CHILE

"1.- IS POSSIBLE TO BUILD THE COIL WITHOUT TIGHTENING TO MUCH, SO I CAN PLAY WITH CORRECT INDUCTANCE."

Yes, why not. You could do some change to inductance tightening it after wound... yes, using a cord and then shield to get right value...
only thing I'll be aware are unwanted variations of inductance due to movements e.g. when you move the coil... or hit stones on the search field.

I think you can do that way for test bench tests, without problems... but think that you need tight wound on real coil... and also seal/fix it with some epoxy too when right nulled, as I've done on mine.

"
2.- MAX, I HAVE TRIED TO FIND A GOOD OWNERS MANUAL FOR THIS GOLDEN SABRE. I STILL CAN GET THE PICTURE FOR THE USE OF REJECT AND NOTCH FUNCTIONS ON GOLDEN SABRE. ALSO, DON´T KNOW WHAT ARE FOR POTS THE TWO POTS ON THE BOARD. I ONLY KNOW THAT ONE OF THEM, HAVE SOME INFLUENCE ON THE KIND AND SHAPE OF METAL DETECTED...ANY COMMENTS ABOUT THIS."

I haven't the owner manual of GS but reject mean disc, using it you can reject stuff (iron, nickel etc) and keep in wanted (copper, silver etc) so it's a disc control. Notch I know is a function that give you the freedom of setting a wanted interval of phase (so rotate the "acceptance window") in which you want accept (detect) objects... so you can tune e.g. for silver... and get (ideally) just silver signals.
Great importance has gnd balance (in any vlf detector)... you must balance pumping searchcoil up and down at say 10cm from ground... up to 30cm... when your detector is right balanced you don't get any increase or decrease in audio tone - do it in all-metal mode, start with gnd balance (geb) pot at middle... adjust audio tone to be just audible... then you have to test and reglulate one way or another to get that no-influence point where you move up and down the coil over ground, without audio variations.
Another (good) method is using a ferrite round core... you need adjust geb control to get absolutely no signal moving e.g. at 5-8 cm from center of coil.
This last is indicated exp. for test bench tryout.

Sens is just gain... keep it higher till you ear cracking sound... then lower just to make cracking disappear.

All this require a bit of practice... but it's really easy when you understand and practice for few hours in the field.

Best regards,
Max

[/quote]

Hi Nelson,
nice housing ! I like it!

"When i turn it on and disc is on too, no sound and no detection is comming."

Strange, battery check must be performed in disc mode... you would hear the batt. checker tone for 3-4 seconds and then nothing else, no sound.
Remember that is motion detector that way and you need to move objects in front of coil (or coil respect object) to get detection of it in motion detector.
If you move object and get no sound maybe is due to reject control... try with diff objects at 3-5cm from coil: you must get some detection.

"
About ground balance, this procedure is making only one time, or on diferents soils must be adjusted again. If so, is posible to put and external pot to do this from the front panel, every time you need to adjust GB on diferent soils?
"
Yes, on original project was a trimpot that you set one time on test field or using ferrite... then leave always that way.
My idea is that if you work on different kind of soils you'll want a panel pot instead, to make small adjustements on every field to get maximum performance and stability.
Anyway, you could leave the PCB trimpot, as Ivconic suggested, cause GSabre is a very tollerant machine... and you wouldn't get out of tune in geb section if you go hunting in "easy" or "normal" soils... (no black sand, not too iron oxides...).
I suggest you use first trimpot... and try on different 3 or 4 fields... just tune it on 1st field... then if you notice that somewhere else you got falsing due to geb you could change trimpot with a panel pot to make life easy.

Best regards,
Max

[ivconic]

Notch!

"Notch" function is very easy to understand if we imagine this as chart, see bellow;
"Notch" can start from least point of Disc but not less. Also can end at end of scale.
On TGS you can also adjust Notch Width, as position also.
No wonder if you can not hear tone. Pay attention on what level you adjusted Disc, than
"move" Notch down to that level and try to detect material which suits expectations.
If detected than rise Notch a bit (in Reject mode) and than should not be any tone.
Same you can try in Accept mode, although this time you should hear tone.
Notch function helps you to distinguish much precisely type of metal detected in Disc
mode range. Logically you can not set Notch lower than Disc. Pay attention on that!
I ejected Notch part from TGS just cose it is not necessairly, also due smaller pcb,
less pots, wires,switches....Much easier to find housing and pack it....
Of course it can be very usefull finction...but i do not need it. Whenever it beeps in
Disc mode, i dig....


Bravo Nelson! Very nice!

[nelson]

Hi Ivconic, Max and all good friends here.

Well my TGS box is not the best, because i need to complete it. Text on front panel was wrote with a permanent pencil, so i need to do a good job on this. I ll also have to seal the box, to don´t let humidity get in. But this are minor things to do.
By now i´m concentrating on coils and TGS functions ( thanks Ivconic and Max for such good information). The circuit is workink ok and componets replacement posted here are ok too. I just replace LM308 and made some fix on 4.7 pF caps, has Ivconic do.(Thanks Ivconic).

I´m at my work now, so test will be performed today i hope in the evening. Coils will be fixed this weekend or before that if i can.

Thanks again i will keep in touch for more information about this nice detector.

Regards

Nelson

"Notch" function is very easy to understand if we imagine this as chart, see bellow;
"Notch" can start from least point of Disc but not less. Also can end at end of scale.
On TGS you can also adjust Notch Width, as position also.
No wonder if you can not hear tone. Pay attention on what level you adjusted Disc, than
"move" Notch down to that level and try to detect material which suits expectations.
If detected than rise Notch a bit (in Reject mode) and than should not be any tone.
Same you can try in Accept mode, although this time you should hear tone.
Notch function helps you to distinguish much precisely type of metal detected in Disc
mode range. Logically you can not set Notch lower than Disc. Pay attention on that!
I ejected Notch part from TGS just cose it is not necessairly, also due smaller pcb,
less pots, wires,switches....Much easier to find housing and pack it....
Of course it can be very usefull finction...but i do not need it. Whenever it beeps in
Disc mode, i dig....


Bravo Nelson! Very nice!

[Sean_Goddard]

WELL DONE Nelson!! I'm so glad it all works for you after the amount of effort you put in.

It' so nice to see peoples hard work and perseverence pay off for them and boy has Nelson worked hard on this one !!

[Sean_Goddard]

A Hercules monitor tube cover?? ROFLMAO . NOW I've seen everything Ivconic, but hey it works!!

Thanks for giving me the laugh of the week.

I'm confused about the spacings of the Minelab coil clone you made can you explain please (sorry stupid me ).

[Sean_Goddard]

BTW it's NOT Minelab, but Coiltek who made and designed most Minelabs coils. Minelab got too big for their own boots and ripped off the design. But we can still learn and IMPROVE. That's why we come here.

Ivconic, can you write a "How To" of how you make and null your coil, I could post if as a PDF on the forum if you dont have that facility, or maybe you could send it to Carl who can post it in the Projects part like he did with Dave Emery's concentric coil.

[ivconic]

OK


OK. I will try tp prepare it. Problem is my camera,low resolution...but i'll manage somehow. I will go step by step in making one coil with shooting every step.Later i will send you on mail or here....as you wish. I can also put it in .pdf but i am trying to avoid large files due my slow dial-up...It will take hours to upload it here...Better if i send piece by piece....Yes it is good idea you to compose .pdf file wit all eventual corrections.Be free to do that, with all my tributes! I'll start next day or two...
About Hercules...yes, at the time i was thinking it;s gonna be ugly and funny...but it turns to be very good to handle with also very resistive in hard terrain conditions. Very hard plastic alloy! Easy to pack pcb in...Yet it is not big and heavy. That's why i noted especially Hercules monitor cose those "tail" is smallest at that type. On other monitors are bigger, to big for housing we want here. I suggest you to try and later you'll see-it is not bad at all!

Minelab...Coiltek...Hey! They did great job! All Minelab's coils are great, high quality. Also Fisher's SPIDER coils, also coil for TROY machines, spider coil but named other way....8x9 or something like that? I have one of those...very elegan,light and powerfull!

OK. I'll be back tomorow with first shots!
Regards!

[nelson]

Thanks Sean_Goddart.
Yes it`s has been hard for me to get into electronics again after 20 years of living my studies. The reazon, i decided to study another career. But anyway, electronics is still my hobby and after i discover this web site and forums, my interest on making my own metal detectors, opened for my a new world of fun and why not a way to make money while you walk with your metal detector by parks, schools, beaches, etc.

Now i need to get a good coil, so i ll keep trying and trying, experimenting and experimenting, this is the only way to get things to work.

Good idea if Ivconic can make a file with graphically instructions, step by step about how to make a good coil.

To Ivconic:
Ivconic, on another post, you said that making the coils is not so dificult and after that, you can tune the coils by making some corrections to the circuit. Can you tell us how to do that?

Best regards

Nelson

WELL DONE Nelson!! I'm so glad it all works for you after the amount of effort you put in.

It' so nice to see peoples hard work and perseverence pay off for them and boy has Nelson worked hard on this one !!

[ivconic]

...

Nelson, not a big deal, i was thinking on changing capacitances in oscillator to fine readjust frequency,phase etc. You need scope to be sure what to do. Simillar things are explained at Bandido threads (few of them)...

Now to Sean:

O.K.
Here is first group of photos i made this morning.
I started to make my last type of DD coil, with
28cm diammeter and 120 windings for TX/125 for RX.
I have to admit that dont have clear concept how to
go step by step and later compile all those in one
good document!? Dont have "screenplay"!
It will be good if you Sean, use those photos and
do the rest....If you can.
I have to stop, left out scotch tape, super glue and
few more things. Second part i'll prepare in few days
when obtain those.
regards!
...