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[mosha]

good luck

I am happy for you, good luck.

regards'
Mosha

[Steve in MS]

Congrats Carl on your new job. Most of us would like to be involved in some aspect of making metal detectors. Will you have to move from Coast to Coast? No matter if you do, I am sure you will like it fine.
Hope for you and Whites the best.
Regards,
Steve(MS)

[aft_72005]

Hi Carl
For some problems I cannot connect to geotech (I don’t know),
But I am having success to day. Also see this thread, my very congratulations
For your new job, I hope you will have more success at White's, company and
Don’t forget geotech forum.
Best regards.

[ivconic]

Unregistered:
"...There is a huge difference in the market for an MXT and a deep seeking pulse detector. That's why you don't see any of the big boys putting those in their catalogs. I doubt very much that Whites, Garret, Minelab, Bounty Hunter, Fisher, JWFisher, ettc. will ever add one to their line. This may be a difficult part of the transition to Whites for you. They are interested in selling many thousands of each model, they aren't interested in a detector that might sell 50 to 100 per year and realistically that's all that can be expected at best out of a deep seeking pulse detector, they all carry 1 beach pulse detector and that's it. The contraints of a real business rather than a hobby may be disappointing for you for this..."

Let me take freedom to make assumptions also, like you did;
good PI could also be sold in thousands pcs per month or year, why not?
I seriously doubt those big manufacturers are fastidious on money!
But..i never seen good and really useable PI detector to compete any of high class VLF. No matter how hard some designers are trying, PI technology so far seems to be a huge waste of money. There is a sort of prejudice (or universal truth) amicable in wide public masses that PI detector is pretty limited machine, you saw one - you seen them all.
I tried almost all major brands, essentially those are all the same...and very limited. Aint no PI to compete any descent VLF in all aspects, latelly in depths also. So why wasting money and energy to try to discover "hot water" again?
Recently i had chance to see in action so good advertised Sirius, high tech PI with soft touch TFT and all the cosmetics never seen before...Hah! Total joke! Also damn expensive crap! Handmade Delta Pulse works 3 time better than that Sirius crap.
Not to mention other crap: PS II, Lorenz (all models), Minelab GP's and so on, and so on....all of those.
So...pretty wise and serious guys from big manufacturers alredy know this truth and logically they do not want to risk and experiment with so unsecured market today. PI model made in a huge serie could be oneway ticket to bust, especially these days when so many cheap detectors appeared on market from everywhere.
White's is making smart and carefull moves, DFX serie is hard to beat..so far no competition. Who needs PI anymore? Except special industrial PI's, already covered well...
So...my few assumptions...
Regards!

[hung]

maybe pdk can soon desplace to white etc, haha

I agree 100%.

Industry (and enthusiasts) keep insisting in 'reinventing the wheel' lauching regular MDs. These are only toys for hobbyists. The HUGE money the 'regular' MD maufacturers make selling those toys of course does not and will never justify any change in positions. They earn millions and find a treasure loot every month in the people who are plenty satisfied in taking their toy to the beach to find some coins...

I had the information sometime ago of the growing number of people around the world, including the US, who developed great long range systems which are totally electronic and fully working. Those people wish to remain incognito for obvious reasons. It's solely for their personal use. I completely understand that as I also developed my system and also will keep secrecy.

The LRL manufacturers are frequently accused of perverse intentions, selling devices which apparently don't work for big money. Regarding the big money, I agree. Many of them are over priced. But I still stand for what I claimed here in the past about the LRL reports found in this site. Probably they all work as I built 2 of them which worked and I know people who built some others and reported they also worked.

I don't deny some LRLs might not be fully developed and are sold by inescrupulous businessman, but the current major 'regular' MD manufacturers in this aspect don't just do the same when they offer toys to the general consumer which at best find a coin at 35 cm?

Yes, 'regular' detectors+resonable prices+fast assembling techonology+thousands sellings= MILIONS OF PROFIT!

Take the easy way right?

Well, I have to confess. I own one of those 'regular' toys. A subaquatic Minelab. For the main purpose of using it in the ocean floor, where I cannot take my LRLs as they are not water proof. But I'm working on that and soon my axe will rest in my garage.
In a recent leisure trip I did not bring any detector with me. I met with a friend at this beautiful spot by the ocean and he invited me to go with him for a coin hunt at the beach with his garret.
I tell you.. Soooo booring....

Sorry if I hurt some fellings.

[Max]

I agree 100%.

Industry (and enthusiasts) keep insisting in 'reinventing the wheel' lauching regular MDs. These are only toys for hobbyists. The HUGE money the 'regular' MD maufacturers make selling those toys of course does not and will never justify any change in positions. They earn millions and find a treasure loot every month in the people who are plenty satisfied in taking their toy to the beach to find some coins...

I had the information sometime ago of the growing number of people around the world, including the US, who developed great long range systems which are totally electronic and fully working. Those people wish to remain incognito for obvious reasons. It's solely for their personal use. I completely understand that as I also developed my system and also will keep secrecy.

The LRL manufacturers are frequently accused of perverse intentions, selling devices which apparently don't work for big money. Regarding the big money, I agree. Many of them are over priced. But I still stand for what I claimed here in the past about the LRL reports found in this site. Probably they all work as I built 2 of them which worked and I know people who built some others and reported they also worked.

I don't deny some LRLs might not be fully developed and are sold by inescrupulous businessman, but the current major 'regular' MD manufacturers in this aspect don't just do the same when they offer toys to the general consumer which at best find a coin at 35 cm?

Yes, 'regular' detectors+resonable prices+fast assembling techonology+thousands sellings= MILIONS OF PROFIT!

Take the easy way right?

Well, I have to confess. I own one of those 'regular' toys. A subaquatic Minelab. For the main purpose of using it in the ocean floor, where I cannot take my LRLs as they are not water proof. But I'm working on that and soon my axe will rest in my garage.
In a recent leisure trip I did not bring any detector with me. I met with a friend at this beautiful spot by the ocean and he invited me to go with him for a coin hunt at the beach with his garret.
I tell you.. Soooo booring....

Sorry if I hurt some fellings.

You forget to mention the dynamite candles this time....

[Max]

Unregistered:
"...There is a huge difference in the market for an MXT and a deep seeking pulse detector. That's why you don't see any of the big boys putting those in their catalogs. I doubt very much that Whites, Garret, Minelab, Bounty Hunter, Fisher, JWFisher, ettc. will ever add one to their line. This may be a difficult part of the transition to Whites for you. They are interested in selling many thousands of each model, they aren't interested in a detector that might sell 50 to 100 per year and realistically that's all that can be expected at best out of a deep seeking pulse detector, they all carry 1 beach pulse detector and that's it. The contraints of a real business rather than a hobby may be disappointing for you for this..."

Let me take freedom to make assumptions also, like you did;
good PI could also be sold in thousands pcs per month or year, why not?
I seriously doubt those big manufacturers are fastidious on money!
But..i never seen good and really useable PI detector to compete any of high class VLF. No matter how hard some designers are trying, PI technology so far seems to be a huge waste of money. There is a sort of prejudice (or universal truth) amicable in wide public masses that PI detector is pretty limited machine, you saw one - you seen them all.
I tried almost all major brands, essentially those are all the same...and very limited. Aint no PI to compete any descent VLF in all aspects, latelly in depths also. So why wasting money and energy to try to discover "hot water" again?
Recently i had chance to see in action so good advertised Sirius, high tech PI with soft touch TFT and all the cosmetics never seen before...Hah! Total joke! Also damn expensive crap! Handmade Delta Pulse works 3 time better than that Sirius crap.
Not to mention other crap: PS II, Lorenz (all models), Minelab GP's and so on, and so on....all of those.
So...pretty wise and serious guys from big manufacturers alredy know this truth and logically they do not want to risk and experiment with so unsecured market today. PI model made in a huge serie could be oneway ticket to bust, especially these days when so many cheap detectors appeared on market from everywhere.
White's is making smart and carefull moves, DFX serie is hard to beat..so far no competition. Who needs PI anymore? Except special industrial PI's, already covered well...
So...my few assumptions...
Regards!

Hi,
I agree 95%... let me explain...

I'm on same position at now respect PI machines... no good on real field for a number of reasons.

Some I wanna recall are :
- poor or absent REAL ground balancing in commercial PI machines, expecially in depth kind... those that need the larger/enormous coils...and costs big buck
- no discrimination or bad/unreliable discrimination on PIs, any brand... really a joke about that
- much false from ceramics/bricks/pottery... whaterver apart the good stuff!
- enormous PRICE for many of those... really unbelivable for what they offer

and I can continue for hours but better I'll focus on depth issue: I think some are really monsters about depth 50cm on a coin! at least ON AIR.

No... really... sometimes you can get incredible sensitivity also on soil but in really easy soil...cause expecially the sensitive ones are unstable on real... mineralized soil... you just have to forget using them in that places.

Good on beach most of the times... stable and deep.. but rest... inland search is for 80% of places IMPOSSIBLE. No other words: IMPOSSIBLE is the only.

If I would like to buy one good PI I DON'T WANNA I MUST SEARCH JUST ON THE BEACH AND IN A COUPLE OF PLACES MORE... (the uppercase is referred to manifacturers and "entusiast" users on PI for inland search... I think those are just plain MAD! )

I'd like more depth from VLFs but just this... all the rest is already perfect! that's why I agree 95% on the post of above.

So... if I'll buy something WILL BE SURE NOT PI, don't need them at all at now.

Kind regards,
Max

[joecoin]

Congratulations Carl,

Sounds like time developing Geotech was time well spent.

Suggestion for forum moderator would be the team of Hung and Dell.

[Fred]

They are interested in selling many thousands of each model, they aren't interested in a detector that might sell 50 to 100 per year and realistically that's all that can be expected at best out of a deep seeking pulse detector, they all carry 1 beach pulse detector and that's it. The contraints of a real business rather than a hobby may be disappointing for you for this.

I don´t know why they would not be interested in building such a detector,selling 500 or 100 per year @ 10K$ or many cheaper being mainly a commercial choise...the problem however is that they would need to focus on software and not on hardware where those companies have more experience.
If they don´t someone else will.
regards,
Fred.

[Unregistered]

Hmmm....

Seems I pissed some people off, maybe even Carl. All I thought I was doing was stating the obvious. For some reason, and I personally don't understand why, people want good discrimination and PIs just aren't ever going to have it. Not on par with VLFs anyway, so they'll stick to there 20+ year old 2 box designs. Personally my experience using a large coil PI is much superior to the 2 boxes out there. All I wanted was depth, not discrimination. PIs have vast more depth then 2 boxes! And if you hunt KGC treasure, you'd better be using a PI or you'll never find their treasure.

good luck

[Carl-NC]

Seems I pissed some people off, maybe even Carl. All I thought I was doing was stating the obvious. For some reason, and I personally don't understand why, people want good discrimination and PIs just aren't ever going to have it. Not on par with VLFs anyway, so they'll stick to there 20+ year old 2 box designs. Personally my experience using a large coil PI is much superior to the 2 boxes out there. All I wanted was depth, not discrimination. PIs have vast more depth then 2 boxes! And if you hunt KGC treasure, you'd better be using a PI or you'll never find their treasure.

Ticked off? Heck no! Not me. I only stated that a PI cache hunter would be a product to consider, nothing more. And I agree, a large-coil PI will easily beat a 2-box on depth. Interestingly, the 2-box is an example of a low-volume product sold by White's, Garrett, and Fisher, so they have made business cases for these in the past. However, I don't agree that PI's will never have good discrimination... that is an area of intense research right now, and there are real results that suggest otherwise. We'll see.

- Carl

P.S.-- If you hunt for KGC treasure, you won't find it even with a PI! Ah, but that's a topic more appropriate for other forums, eh?

[JC1]

WoW!

Congratulations Carl,

So are you going to move to Oregon?

Be careful making this your work, or your hobby

won't be as much fun anymore. I know Bounty Hunter

very well, they will not let anyone do or say anything.

Hopefully Whites is not as paranoid and bigger thinking.

You need to keep YOUR website and forum !!!

Even if you post very little. White's should not in the least

be "threatened" by this. Hope they have a good work

environment, and a nice office for you !!!

Good Luck and good designing.

[ivconic]

"...Seems I pissed some people off.."

Not me for sure. As matter of fact you started interesting subject to elaborate more. So i can only say your post is interesting and provoked me to think more on this.
Good question you asked there! It is noticeable really that some major manufacturers do not "push" PI designs any more? Why? Very good question!

Carl...ehm, i agree; very accurate discrimination at PI is already achieved. I mentioned Proton Sirius. Excellent discrimination...but very poor depth!?
It can discriminate 100% accuratelly up to 40-50cm...on medium and large sized items, and that is all. Above that distance...nothing. I was very disapointed also with its "depths". Pulse Star II (with all its drawbacks) turns to be superior on depths comparing to Sirius.
So ...it seems disc feature at PI's is not an issue any more. Deal is to achieve accurate discriminations at higher depths at both; PI's and VLF's. Cose both are lacking of accurate discrimination at higher depths.VLF's also.
Take any high end VLF and test (not pointed exactly to you, you already have tons of detectors!!!) and you will see its ending disc capabilities.
What i saw so far is very accurate disc at ...not more than 40-50cm in ground...even than only at high end devices. So...that is the real issue, problem to be solved in future...

[Max]

"...Seems I pissed some people off.."

Not me for sure. As matter of fact you started interesting subject to elaborate more. So i can only say your post is interesting and provoked me to think more on this.
Good question you asked there! It is noticeable really that some major manufacturers do not "push" PI designs any more? Why? Very good question!

Carl...ehm, i agree; very accurate discrimination at PI is already achieved. I mentioned Proton Sirius. Excellent discrimination...but very poor depth!?
It can discriminate 100% accuratelly up to 40-50cm...on medium and large sized items, and that is all. Above that distance...nothing. I was very disapointed also with its "depths". Pulse Star II (with all its drawbacks) turns to be superior on depths comparing to Sirius.
So ...it seems disc feature at PI's is not an issue any more. Deal is to achieve accurate discriminations at higher depths at both; PI's and VLF's. Cose both are lacking of accurate discrimination at higher depths.VLF's also.
Take any high end VLF and test (not pointed exactly to you, you already have tons of detectors!!!) and you will see its ending disc capabilities.
What i saw so far is very accurate disc at ...not more than 40-50cm in ground...even than only at high end devices. So...that is the real issue, problem to be solved in future...

Hi,
yes, I agree... on VLFs disc limitations on far distances but they actually disc stuff... even small stuff. I cannot find any PI I've hand on , borrow stuff or bought or made by me, have any reliable disc on items like a coin or a small ring! It's a pure speculation till someone will introduce a real discriminating-PI not something that just works for medium sized objects etc.

That's what I think... that's why I'm critic with PI technology at now... I know very well the depth they can achieve using large coils... but then ? No disc on small stuff ??? Unuseful to me this way.

Have I find a rusty small paint can at 1meter underground ??? Why ???

That's why PIs have so hard moments in last years: they are VERY limited machines... not about depth but they lack too much on disc issue or have unreliable disc that serves nothing... you'll always dig at any beep... and that's fine with sand... just a couple of minutes you could waste not with some hard soil... digging half a meter to find a nail!

That's real disappointing to anyone such an experience...

Then the other (enormous?) issue is about fired bricks etc! DANG! cannot avoid them with ANY PI in the universe, unless suspend the coil at 20cm and more from soil... that cut half of detection range on small stuff, so serves what!?

The problem is... if you ask e.g. someone that search for small stuff in infested inland sites... the answer will be always the same: that dang PI doesn't work for me there ! And I absolutely agree!

A clear example is GS4... hell of PI, goes very deep but for what I need it SERVES ME NOTHING... I have it hanged somewhere in my garage!
Just another piece in the collection...that's it.

Don't misunderstud me... I like PIs...their design and elegant solutions but...on practical side...I think PI are good for beach, deserts, underwater search and depth location. For all the rest the simply sux and that is a fact.

A question I wanna make here to all is.... if there's already reliable disc on PIs, also on small stuff, where are the commercials machines that do it ? Sorry but I cannot see even a single one.

Kind regards,
Max

[michael]

Hi, it depends on your purpose of search. what are you looking for?
a single coin or even small bunch of coins PIs not good, yes should use VLFs and that at beaches not wild furious mineralized grounds.
for 10 years ago I used White's super spectrum XLT for 1 year all wasting time-life and some empty-holes and enormous false signals every where with those funny target IDs.
afterward I kissed and put it aside it sufficed for all my life and never want to try other similar toys now made by White's or Garrett or fisher.
I confronted to many serious THers who were highly angry of using White's or Garrett various models.
maybe those are good for people who want to find a single coin, ring at surface in smooth easy places like beaches but are entirely paralytic at wild conditions in opposite of PIs.
but if you;
1- don't mind to discrimination 2- search just in remote areas not indoor places and 3- leave/ignore small targets i.e. look for big precious OBTs at great depth, PIs(of course some) are best option.
of course it need high experience to analyze the signal and after that treasures are in your hands.
as Max pointed yes PIs hit some dense mineralized things like bricks. but with experience can realize them.
Ivconic points to Sirius which being sold by DTI firm, I had an opportunity to see Genesis model yes very weak, couldn't give even a single beep for our buried test target at 3 meters depth with its' large funny LCD and many of ridiculous menu in the program.

Who has really found a treasure by VLFs at 350 Cm depth? but I know a man who found it with Pulse Star II 9 months ago.
it consisted of a jar including 27 Kg gold coin + 5 small gold statues and a gold bowl. totally was 32-33 Kg.
this was his 6th excavated treasure by a PI, I know before that found 2 jars full of coins with Lorenz.
of course he is a member of this forum maybe himself desire to tell all the story details.
This man is one of many of successful users that likewise many many of people never want to reflect their results by good PIs.

anyway is unfair judge to push aside valuable PIs and compare them with weak VLFs toys.
PIs are best 1st for their own users and purposes 2nd some especial places and here we get the answer of this unregistered friend; users are confined to 50-100 person per year.